D&D (2024) Arcane/Divine/Primal Spell Lists: Are the Benefits Real?

[tetrasodium]

The way I see it, being able to design a spell available to wizards and warlocks but not sorcerers (for instance) is a feature, not a bug. And I think it's going to be easier to do that on a case by case basis than by keeping track of the implications of each spell school/power source combination.


Five works well in MTG because the game was built from the ground up around five power sources with distinct mechanical and conceptual identities. D&D's spell lists are instead seeking to emulate a lot of ideosyncratic genre history. They could in theory be rebuilt in a more systematic way (perhaps something along the lines of @Yaarel 's proposal), but this would require a willingness to break with a lot of traditions, and I don't think the product would look at all like the Arcane/Divine/Primal lists.


I think there are definitely benefits to having classes with extensive spell repetoires (like Wizards) alongside classes with shorter spell lists but more non-spell abilities (like Bards). But I think that customized lists can accomplish this better than shared lists with school restrictions.

Class specific lists can yes, but the way they did that successfully without making more casting focused classes feel like their toys were being copied by classes with more class powers was 3.x's class specific spell levels. If for example wotc put out a bovd-lite with necromancers & other evil casters in it there could be warlock & sorcerer archetypes that add any meaningfully thematic spells like the bard's songs of restoration without needing to give all of them to every warlock & every sorcerer even though they might be available to every wizard or every cleric as appropriate for the spell.

 

[Minigiant]

Five works well in MTG because the game was built from the ground up around five power sources with distinct mechanical and conceptual identities. D&D's spell lists are instead seeking to emulate a lot of ideosyncratic genre history. They could in theory be rebuilt in a more systematic way (perhaps something along the lines of @Yaarel 's proposal), but this would require a willingness to break with a lot of traditions, and I don't think the product would look at all like the Arcane/Divine/Primal lists.

Modern D&D is built around 6 full casters plus half and third casters that copy most of their parent full casters spells with some uniques.

1. Bard
2. Cleric
   1. Paladin
3. Druid
   1. Ranger
4. Sorcerer
5. Warlock
6. Wizard
   1. Artificer

The only oddball is Bard whose source of magic is poorly replicated in the power source system as it is barely defined a what the Songs of Creation is, how it differs from Power Words and True Names, and how it theme comes about.

Modern D&D is built around a 5 list magic system with additional lists for setting based magicks (Psionics, Ki, Incarnum, Vestiges, True Names)

Really the problem is the Bard. Its power source doesn't make sense in Arcane/Divine/Primal/Shadow/???? and it lacks a cool name for it

 

[Yaarel]

@Minigiant

Heh, a cool name for the Bard power source is: Psionic.

 

[Corinnguard]

Psionics could potentially be a problem for their Futureproofing too. Unless they either start have a 4th source list, or basically say "Psions based on Discipline use select schools from certain source lists"

In Pathfinder 1st edition, psionics was made into another form of magic. Psychic or Occult Magic. One of the things that made Psychic Magic different from the magic used by other spellcasters was it's two spell components- Thought and Emotion. To cast a psychic spell, you had to be thinking and emoting a certain way.

 

[Vael]

From a flavour perspective, this is a win. Having Arcane, Divine and Primal spell lists can do some world building.

Admittedly, the Bard is a tricky one, and it's definitely the class that is challenged most by this way of organizing spells (well, I expect the Artificer to face similar issues). But for the 3 main Arcane casters (Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard), this is a net win. From a generic feat/lineage perspective, I see this as a good simplification. As a fan of the Primal power source from 4e, I like making it a defined part of the game.

 

[MoonSong]

But for the 3 main Arcane casters (Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard), this is a net win.

Not really, I'm not convinced they aren't going to gut sorcerer access to spells by school. Plus they might lose access to nonwizard spells they used to get. And anything that makes sorcerers care about schools is a net loss tobthe flavor and theme of the sorcerer.

 

[Horwath]

1D&D just needs one spell list.

open to all.

then just have classes/subclasses give spells known/prepared extra from cantrips to level 5. 2 spells per spell level.

reduce the amount of spells known/prepared to 1 spell per caster level from levels 1-11 and then only one extra spell at levels 13,15 and 17.


trying to balance 3 or 5 or 10 separate spell lists is just fools errand.


outside spells, casters would get other defining features:

wizards get rituals and spell mastery,
sorcerers have metamagics,
clerics have divine interventions, channel divinity
druids have wild shape
bards have inspirations/expertise.
warlocks have invocations.



spellcasting subclass spells for example:

Healer;
cantrips; resistance, spare the dying
level 1; cure wounds, healing word
level 2; lesser restoration, healing spirit
level 3; mass healing word, revivify
level 4; Aura of light, death ward
level 5; mass cure wound, raise dead

Necromancer;
cantrips; chill touch, toll the dead
level 1; false life, inflict wounds
level 2; blindness/deafness, ray of enfeeblement
level 3; animate dead, summon undead
level 4; blight, shadow of moil
level 5; dance macabre, enervation

Kineticist;
cantrips; eldritch blast, mage hand
level 1; magic missile, shield
level 2; levitate, kinetic jaunt
level 3; fly, haste
level 4; Mordekainen's faithful hound, Otiluke's resilient sphere
level 5; animate objects, telekinesis

Traveler;
cantrips; guidance, mage hand
level 1; expeditious retreat, longstrider
level 2; misty step, vortex warp
level 3; thunder step, gaseous form
level 4; dimension door, find greater steed
level 5; passwall, teleportation circle

Greenseer;
cantrips; primal savagery, thorn whip
level 1; entangle, fog cloud
level 2; spike growth, pass without trace
level 3; plant growth, summon fey
level 4; guardian of nature, summon elemental
level 5; insect plague, wrath of nature

Pyromancer;
cantrips; firebolt, greenflame blade
level 1; burning hands, hellish rebuke
level 2; scorching ray, heat metal
level 3; fireball, ashardalon's stride
level 4; fireshield(fire), summon elemental(fire)
level 5; immolation, summon draconic spirit(fire)

Mindbender:
cantrips; friends, mind sliver
level 1; charm person, dissonant whispers
level 2; hold person, suggestion
level 3; enemies abound, fear
level 4; charm monster, phantasmal killer
level 5; dominate person, modify memory

Illusionist;
cantrips; message, minor image
level 1; disguise self, silent image
level 2; invisibility, mirror image
level 3; hypnotic patter, major image
level 4; greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain
level 5; dream, seeming

Defender;
cantrips; bladeward, sword burst
level 1; absorb elements, armor of agathys
level 2; aid, blur
level 3; counterspell, dispel magic
level 4; banishment, freedom of movement
level 5; bigbies hand, dispel good and evil

 

[Minigiant]

@Minigiant

Heh, a cool name for the Bard power source is: Psionic.

I'd call it Astral and have Psionics, True Names, and Words of Creation linked to the Astral and Ethereal planes.

Bards would have access to all Astral spells except Conjuration.
Psions would have access to all Astral spells except Illusion
Ardents wold be Astral halfcasters

 

[Azzy]

Personally, I'm not a fan of these three lists. I much prefer classes have their own lists.

 

[Pauln6]

They tried this before and it was a mess. I prefer class lists.