Arcane Heirophant vs Ultimate Magus... trying to make a character concept good enough to not suck

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The examples of exceeding character level you give for caster level involve an item and class feature which allow you to exceed character level anyway. As for the second, I stand corrected, though I would insist on my reading - inserting 'class level' where appropriate - were I the GM.
Well, yes. Which is exactly what the Arcane Power feature from Ultimate Magus lets you do, your caster level can exceed your character level. PS gets sorcerer from 9 to 13, and Arcane Power raises from 13 to 17.
As to the second, that's a perfectly valid house rule. I also think that getting into UM with only 1 caster level is a little cheesy, so I didn't do it either. I just played a beguiler2/wizard3, and then used the PS trick as described.
 

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Argyle King

Legend
In 3.5, if the skill is cross-class, 1 skill point only buys a half rank. The benefit of the dip is that your max ranks becomes (level+3), not ((level+3)/2). The Able Learner feat (Races of Destiny, must be human and take at 1st level) lets you treat all your class skills as class skills even if you multiclass to a class that doesn't have them.
Still, UMD is a bit of a luxury if you're already a druid/wizard. You're not missing that many spells!

Thanks for pointing that out. I have Races of Destiny, but it's a book I hadn't gotten much use out of before 3rd Edition was replaced by Pathfinder and 4th in my primary group. That's also one of the reasons I wanted to try Arcane Heirophant (or Magus.) It was an option I always thought sounded cool, but had never actually gotten a chance to use it.

Since your party is a bit on the lower power side, I'd say arcane hierophant is a really good choice. If you absolutely must have 9th level spells by 20th, I'd say either druid 4/wizard 3 or druid 3/wizard 4 to start. If you want to pursue the dragon flavor more, druid 3/sorcerer 4 would also work. For a bit more versatility at lower levels, I'd see if human paragon from Unearthed Arcana is available. Druid3/wizard1/human paragon 3 loses a wizard spell level, but gives you way more hit points and skills.

I'd look at natural bond feat to boost your animal companion, and maybe at the dragon wild shape feat at 12th level to complement the "growing into my draconic power" theme.

I think one of the most ironic things about the party is that the player of the fighter is the most knowledgeable when it comes to 3.5, and was the person I thought would be most likely to optimize. He does seem to have an eye toward power; at least to the extent that his fighter seems really good right now at lower levels, but he has expressed that he's gotten bored with trying to make the game into a math exercise. He just wants to play D&D. Still, I'd say, in spite of the fact he's playing a fighter, I expect him and his character to be among the more powerful members of the group.

The player of the rogue/barbarian and the player of the bard/shaman are both new to 3.5. Both have experience with 5th edition via playtests; one has some experience with 1st via playing with his dad. The player of the rogue/barbarian seems as though she's more into just having fun and just rolling dice.

The player of the battle sorcerer is someone I know has played 3.5 a lot, but I've never personally played with her, so I'm unsure what to expect from her character in the long run. Right now, she seems to be geared around being a sorcerer who gets close. She seems a little reluctant to use spells though.

I suppose none of that is really relevant to my original question, but it does give some insight to the group, and give some idea of what my concerns are now as I'm putting together a character. While I am asking about how to make the options I have better (optimizing,) I'm also looking for something which fits well into the group and into my fluff concept. I want to have a good character when it comes to the amount of power the group expects from a primary caster, but I'm not looking to break the game.

From the way things look, I don't believe I'll get wildshape. I'm away from books at the moment, but I believe I'll start going into Arcane Heirophant before my druid side gets wildshape. I was considering just picking up some polymorph spells from the wizard side and using that as my "wildshape." One piece of cheese I think I may use is swapping my wizard familiar out in exchange for an alternate class feature. I thought I'd be required to have a familiar for the Arcane Heirophant, but the PrC is worded in such a way that you still get the companion familiar even if you don't have a familiar. You need to dismiss your familiar "if you have one." I'm looking to see if I can find an alternate feature which gives me something to play into my draconic theme.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
From the way things look, I don't believe I'll get wildshape. I'm away from books at the moment, but I believe I'll start going into Arcane Heirophant before my druid side gets wildshape. I was considering just picking up some polymorph spells from the wizard side and using that as my "wildshape." One piece of cheese I think I may use is swapping my wizard familiar out in exchange for an alternate class feature. I thought I'd be required to have a familiar for the Arcane Heirophant, but the PrC is worded in such a way that you still get the companion familiar even if you don't have a familiar. You need to dismiss your familiar "if you have one." I'm looking to see if I can find an alternate feature which gives me something to play into my draconic theme.
Most people online seem to believe that you get wildshape once you hit a combined 5 levels of druid and Arcane Hierophant, based on the sample character in the book. I think the line in the PrC description about not getting wildshape if you don't have it is for other divine classes who manage to qualify for the class (say, by using bamboo spirit folk or a level in Wildrunner.)
 

Quartz

Hero
Well, yes. Which is exactly what the Arcane Power feature from Ultimate Magus lets you do, your caster level can exceed your character level.

Actually, no. It allows your caster level to exceed your spellcasting class level. Without PS, at no time does your caster level exceed your character level.

PS gets sorcerer from 9 to 13, and Arcane Power raises from 13 to 17.

Well, I'd put them the other way around - AP comes first, then PS to the character level limit. But apparently that's not the official way.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Well, I'd put them the other way around - AP comes first, then PS to the character level limit. But apparently that's not the official way.
Which is fine. As I said, your game is your game. The FAQ is quite clear that PS is always applied in the order most beneficial to the character, however.

And honestly, since I voluntarily weakened my character by playing a dual-caster instead of a straight wizard, I'd think I don't need to be weakened any further.
 


Argyle King

Legend
Most people online seem to believe that you get wildshape once you hit a combined 5 levels of druid and Arcane Hierophant, based on the sample character in the book. I think the line in the PrC description about not getting wildshape if you don't have it is for other divine classes who manage to qualify for the class (say, by using bamboo spirit folk or a level in Wildrunner.)

After reading the PrC again, I believe you are right.

If you would like a resource to choose some ACFs, take a look at http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8732.0.

Also keep in mind the Obtain Familiar feat could work for you.

Possibly.

Though, it would seem I would need to wait until after I started the PrC. Otherwise, I'd need to give up the gained familiar when I take the first level of AH.
 

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