D&D 5E Arcane multiclassing... does it make sense?

[Ancalagon]

Hello

I saw a thread about a warlock/sorcerer build, and instead of derailing it I though I would start a new one.

In brief, wizards study the secrets of the universe and master complex spells and rituals to unleash magic - they need the intellect and the discipline to do so. Sorcerers don't have to - it's in their blood, the raw talent is there, they just have to develop it, through force of will. Warlocks can't seem to master magic as wizards nor do they have it innately - instead they have to be lucky/foolish and make a pact with a potentially sinister patron.

All these individuals are driven to attain supernatural powers. And when that success occurs, it's a momentous occasion. And they continue, they push, they grow. (if they didn't, they wouldn't be adventurers!)

This leads me to well, question arcane multi classing, on a "fluff" level. Once you have succeeded in attaining power, why would you seek a different route to the same arcane power? You already found it! Keep going!

 

[Sunseeker]

Studying magic requires time, dedication and effort. Making pacts with ephemeral powers does not.

I think it "makes sense" depending on who you're talking about. For the 16 Int Wizard, the "average student" of magic, making a pact with dark magic to gain power you normally would not have, to increase your powers in new and exceptional ways, oh heck yeah. Or even for the 20 Int wizard who so arrogantly believes they can strike a Faustian bargain and then come out on top.

It also makes sense in a low magic setting where say, 6th-level and higher spells are known only to ancient entities and require life-risking quests and death-defying stunts.

Essentially, it makes sense from the context of someone who is looking for a shortcut to great power, a way to appear special or finds themselves "chasing the dragon" of more knowledge=more power, rinse and repeat.

I don't think the magic mixes well in D&D though. I typically wish the Warlock spell list was actually a unique list of "dark magic". Or at least each patron provided completely unique magic that could not be accessed via any means other than a pact.

I think the "fluff" arguments I proffered above feel hollow without the rules providing something special just to warlocks. Of course, there's no mechanical tradeoff anymore, even without alignment restrictions, that's a little weak.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The part that doesn't make sense is the 3E-style multi-classing, where advancing in a second class makes it harder to advance in your first class. We know that gaining three levels of warlock after gaining three levels of wizard will make it much harder to gain the next three levels of wizard, but it's not necessarily portrayed that way consistently in the narrative. The narrative wants us to think that multi-classing is a brief detour that will only slow us down temporarily, while giving exciting new powers to augment the old ones, rather than permanently dropping us behind so that we'll never be able to catch up to what we could have been.

That particular narrative would make a lot more sense if the rules gave us separate level tracks for each different class.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The part that doesn't make sense is the 3E-style multi-classing, where advancing in a second class makes it harder to advance in your first class. We know that gaining three levels of warlock after gaining three levels of wizard will make it much harder to gain the next three levels of wizard, but it's not necessarily portrayed that way consistently in the narrative. The narrative wants us to think that multi-classing is a brief detour that will only slow us down temporarily, while giving exciting new powers to augment the old ones, rather than permanently dropping us behind so that we'll never be able to catch up to what we could have been.

That particular narrative would make a lot more sense if the rules gave us separate level tracks for each different class.

This is why I'm a huge proponent of feature-swapping, rather than multiclassing. Using the results of the narrative to pull features over from a new class into the one you are already leveling in. This has the advantage of not derailing a character's advancement (as you pointed out), especially when the fluff of a new class matches what is happening to the PC but the mechanics would just cause all sorts of problems.

The wizard/warlock situation is one that I myself have run into in my own campaign as a player... where I've been a wizard all along but then had several encounters being controlled by an aboleth. My fluff side wanted to take a bit of GOO warlock to represent the powers I had been granted... but my character had not nearly the CHA to make it worthwhile, nor did I necessarily need all the basic warlock features but rather GOO features is what made the most sense for my particular situation.

In truth, I don't necessarily need game mechanics to represent my PC's story... but it does just put forth a disconnect where the game has a class and mechanics in it specifically to embody my story, but the way the multiclass rules work do not make it useful or a true representation of additional power. I'm "gaining new power" for my dealing with this ancient aboleth, but it's actually making me less powerful than if I were to just take another level of wizard (resulting in the exact opposite of what is happening in the narrative.)

But in this particular game had I the ability to feature-swap... I could bring in some level-appropriate GOO features to exchange or replace some of my wizard features as I gained a level so that my power would remain equivalent, but I did now have a cross between wizard and a little warlock. Had it been a game I was DMing I'd embrace that wholeheartedly, because it just makes more sense and doesn't make things worse for a PC by embracing the narrative of their character.

 

[Ancalagon]

These are all good, well thought out comments, thank you.

I think that the wizard, hungry for more power, could make sense, but less so for the sorceress due to her inborn magic. And as as pointed above, it actually is slowing you down significantly.

Feature swapping could work, but sometimes a "brush with power" as described might be bet described with the magic initiate feat? It's also hard to do right - are the two features equivalent? Can this lead to min-maxing etc etc?

Lastly, mechanics wise, in 2nd ed an arcane/arcane multi-class simply wasn't possible, and in 3e was a bad idea. It's only now that a level dip may make sense for some specific builds (and even then, they usually are mediocre until the desired "combo" is achieved). I feel that D&D still hasn't managed multi classing quite right... although 5e has the *least* need for multi-class given the backgrounds and subclasses available...

 

[Arilyn]

It depends. DnD is a game made up of pieces, like a Lego set. Sometimes players will mix up pieces in a seemingly strange or illogical manner, but it will work great for their character's background. Other times it's just cause the player thinks it'll be a fun mix. Other times, the player is just trying to squeeze out every advantage from the rules. This is why blanket restrictions are a bad idea in the game. Sometimes mixing arcane types will not make sense, other times it might be perfect for a particular concept, other times will be, "Who cares, we're just playing DnD."

 

[Caliban]

I have a new character I started playing that is a Halfling Sorcerer(wild mage)/Wizard(Diviner) - he has a talent for magic, but can't control it. (He was struck on the head as a child and has a mis-colored eye and shock of white hair as a result, and may also have some damage to the part of the brain that lets you cast spells.)

His family sent him to a wizard academy to learn control. It failed spectacularly. He partied and drank away the money his family sent him until they cut him off - he was expelled from the wizard academy soon after. He did eventually master a few basic spells and rituals in the battered and stained spellbook that is his only souvenir from wizard school (mage armor, shield, absorb elements), but it was long after he left.

His sorcerer magic is barely controlled at the best of times, and so far he really only knows a single spell - fire bolt. But his attempts to cast it often produce effects far different than what he intends - mispronouncing the spell so that it becomes "fire blot" (bonfire cantrip) instead. Or he uses way to much arcane power and the cantrip explodes into fire (burning hands) or manifests as a different element altogether (chromatic orb).

Between Tides of Chaos, Halfling Luck, Portent, and Wild Surges, incredibly improbable things tend to occur to or around him, as his magic unconsciously warps reality.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

Depends how you spin it, I reckon. One path could lead to another, for whatever narrative reasons the players decides to cook up.

Geoff the Warlock works on developing his ties with his patron. In so doing, he becomes aware of a power within and with his patron's help, unleashes his sorcerours powers.

To flip it around, Wendy the sorcerer was born with magic in her blood. After overcoming some challenges, her power attracts the attention of an otherworldy patron, whose gifts she accepts.

Of couse, it is a bit gamist, but then I've always wondered about folks that pick up levels in Barbarian. What's that Neil? Now you don't just get angry, you get REALLY angry? Good for you.

Of course, unless characters can directly compare their abilities and the rate they develop them with others, they'll probably never notice if one path of power/skill set is progressing slowly. And the idea of 'stopping at 20th level' is most likely an alien concept at most tables, at least from the character's perception. Saying this, I was considering an Adventurer's Guild that bashed applicants with clubs and recorded how many whacks they could take, as a rough way of determining their 'Level'...

 

[Shiroiken]

If you start a warlock, it's because you made your pact, but to become a sorcerer you tapped into a latent talent you never new you had. If you start a sorcerer, you've tapped into your natural talent, but a patron offers you a shortcut to tap into that power.

Starting as a wizard, you might suddenly hit a stumbling block, and take a patron's offer to continue to expand your magic. The only reason I can see that you'd go from warlock to wizard is if you're looking for a way to betray your patron and break the pact.

Starting as a sorcerer, you may find your natural talents hitting a peak, forcing you to wizard in order to do magic the normal way. Starting as wizard, you've suddenly tapped into your hidden talent to become a sorcerer.

In general, I think most wizards aren't going to multiclass with the Sorcerer, Warlock, or Bard, because splitting your primary ability score is bad. Worse yet is that none of the three have any reason to multi-class into wizard because they have two other options.

 

[James Gasik]

Lastly, mechanics wise, in 2nd ed an arcane/arcane multi-class simply wasn't possible, and in 3e was a bad idea.

This is a total aside, but you could multiclass Wizard/Bard in 2e, according to The Complete Bard's Handbook (but only with certain Bard Kits).

3e's Complete Mage had a few Prestige Classes that made Warlock/Wizard or Sorcerer or even Wizard Sorcerer actually doable (by this book they'd learned that the Mystic Theurge approach wasn't great)- a Wiz 9/Sorc 1/Ultimate Magus 10 ends up just short of 9th level spells, but still has a caster level of 20 for Wizard spells, the casting ability of an 11th level Sorcerer (casting at 15th-level ability), and the unique ability to sacrifice spell slots to fuel metamagic- it still wasn't as powerful as a Wiz 20, but it wasn't too far short of the mark.