D&D 4E Arcane Power II - ideascape

[the Jester]

I think I would have liked a ritual cost revision so Rituals were not quite so free at high level nor quite so expensive at low levels

I really dislike sneaking rules changes into later books. If anything, I'd rather see a better balance on ritual cost vs. efficaciousness. But I never had a problem with rituals as is.

But to answer the question, what I wanted was less "paragon path A" and more a matter of style- I wanted more magic that wasn't strictly mechanical. Stuff like we later saw in Heroes of the Feywild and some of the other post-Essentials books- things that were a little 'looser' than the powers and items we'd mostly seen before.

I also would have liked to see more classic spells converted into 4e. There were a ton that never made it. I remember periodically being disappointed that I couldn't find a cool version of whatever old spell in 4e. There are especially some very cool old bard spells from the 2e Complete Bard's Handbook and 3e's Song and Silence that I would have loved to have versions of. Probably some magic items, too.

I do think a wizard necromancer path would have been cool. I think we eventually got one in Heroes of Shadow maybe? That was late enough in the edition that I never got to see it in action.

 

[Garthanos]

I really dislike sneaking rules changes into later books. If anything, I'd rather see a better balance on ritual cost vs. efficaciousness. But I never had a problem with rituals as is.

• I think some of the ideas is definitely about that better balance.
• And I think having some nice guidelines for expanding Scavenging to potentially directly reference spell ingredients or the like (a way for players to not see the cost as "permanent" if you know what I mean.
• But if you had no issues with players being reluctant to spend or reacting to the costs at low levels then never revisiting at high levels (I have actively heard this issue)

But to answer the question, what I wanted was less "paragon path A" and more a matter of style

While i do not mind Paragon and Epic Destinies they arent why I dig in to things. But Themes I think are definitely something I might find appealing.

I wanted more magic that wasn't strictly mechanical. Stuff like we later saw in Heroes of the Feywild and some of the other post-Essentials books- things that were a little 'looser' than the powers and items we'd mostly seen before.

I definitely liked some of the style of the Feywild spells and huge amounts of the books presentation overall tbh I mean its very evocative. And I would definitely like to find a way to blend that into any new material.

I also would have liked to see more classic spells converted into 4e. There were a ton that never made it. I remember periodically being disappointed that I couldn't find a cool version of whatever old spell in 4e. There are especially some very cool old bard spells from the 2e Complete Bard's Handbook and 3e's Song and Silence that I would have loved to have versions of. Probably some magic items, too.

Not so familiar mind elaborating more?

I do think a wizard necromancer path would have been cool. I think we eventually got one in Heroes of Shadow maybe? That was late enough in the edition that I never got to see it in action.

Necromancer was introduced as a school of magic in HoS
I saw some definite innovation and experimental spell designs edgie ones in some of that content you might say you may well want to pick it up if you missed buying.

I think I am wanting more I don't know authentic feeling, Summoner perhaps just bringing in new rituals and making it balanced with Martial Practices it seems relatively doable.

 

[the Jester]

Not so familiar mind elaborating more?

I mean, at this point it has been years since I played 4e, so my examples might be off. Also, it's quite possible some of these eventually got converted and I just didn't see it or don't remember. But I would have loved to see things like sound bubble, which was kind of like silence, but made a bubble that kept its sound in- so for instance, you could chat together and nobody outside the bubble could hear you. (This was a 2e CBoB spell.) I think it was in Song & Silence that bards got a conjure audience spell. Cool stuff like that. And lots of classic spells- I don't know, was there a 4e blade barrier? Sunburst? Chromatic orb? Rainbow?

Necromancer was introduced as a school of magic in HoS
I saw some definite innovation and experimental spell designs edgie ones in some of that content you might say you may well want to pick it up if you missed buying.

I have it, just didn't see much out of it get played- though we had a pixie vampire!

 

[Garthanos]

Plan change the above table to include adjustments and current use costs columns in place of category and choice

 

[Garthanos]

One of my thoughts on rituals is that Arcana is over used ... this has been borgling around in my brain and I thought why not give some of that to other skills and yet we really do not have good ones do we... at least none not already in use. I had thought of making Arcane Skills and Primal Skills that which were in some sense paying an appropriate cost for what was snuck in by the back door by the essentials ie you are paying a skill slot to have a skill that fits your archetypal flavor and based on what may be a secondary attribute. These could be class specific yes the idea really still is let the arcanist or primal or divine characters do their thing their way but to make the cost appropriate (more like a feat or being a trained skill). I feel the encounter limit on those skill sappers is insufficient given how likely it may be for a skill to only really be needed 1 time per encounter.

The potential implications on rituals hadn't occurred to me when I originally had the idea but thinking about improving rituals brought it to mind. New magical skills could spread the functionality of rituals.... while allowing skill powers and every day application of skill uses in effect magical flavored at-will skill.

4E - ARCANE AND PRIMAL SKILLS...

 

[NotAYakk]

1) Arcane themes for non-Arcane classes. Ditto paragon/epics. (broadens utility of book).
2) Two-weapon swordmage.
3) I do like the idea of alternative ritual rules. Less tied to GP.
4) Subclasses like Skald and Berzerker. Access to core powers/feats, but different features.
5) Wizard Tower section; building a base of operations. Demiplanes. With mechanics.
6) Artificer (clockwork), Warlock (abyssal), Swordmage (dancer), Wizard (sage), Bard (explorer), Sorcerer (titan) builds.

 

[Garthanos]

2) Two-weapon swordmage.

Ooooh striker?

3) I do like the idea of alternative ritual rules. Less tied to GP.

I do like that we can throw strategic resources at issues but also petty cash needs to be obviously petty cash ..
There seems to be a low end understanding of money that permeates D&D ecosystems.
In real life really rich and famous actually have cheaper basic living costs to the point that basics are often free they can get luxury without real cost ... in many many eras modern included. The party dripping with expensive gear is dripping with fame too and the inns compete to get them to stay at their places for instance. Nobles call them to stay at the castle and in neither case are they paying. The gold rush economy that Gygax tried to apply is a really really narrow context.

Perhaps a wealth feat which gives a non-compounding daily resource access in civilized areas which gives even more for services rendered and one shot consumable goods and making some goods functionally free.

 

[Dormammu]

I think costs are a weak spot of the 4E design in general. They removed so much non-combat rules bloat, so why did they leave in the weird GP economy of buying magic items and then try to bolt things like rituals onto it?

Fixing the system to use resource checks based on character level and eliminating gold tracking would not only fit the game system better, it would also make it much easier to do things like cost rituals. Decide how hard you want them to be at a given level, set a DC for difficulty to buy and move on!

Not that such a rules module would belong in AP2.

 

[Garthanos]

I think costs are a weak spot of the 4E design in general. They removed so much non-combat rules bloat, so why did they leave in the weird GP economy of buying magic items and then try to bolt things like rituals onto it?

Fixing the system to use resource checks based on character level and eliminating gold tracking would not only fit the game system better, it would also make it much easier to do things like cost rituals. Decide how hard you want them to be at a given level, set a DC for difficulty to buy and move on!

Not that such a rules module would belong in AP2.

Agreed... in general we can however sneak things in by allowing scavenging skill checks to provide components... it integrates them in a way with the skill challenge system better too.

 

[Garthanos]

6) Artificer (clockwork), Warlock (abyssal), Swordmage (dancer), Wizard (sage), Bard (explorer), Sorcerer (titan) builds.

Oh and the highlighted ones are ones I had considered myself (Though perhaps you have different ideas)

Could you elaborate on the various builds. Explorer and Titan sounds intriguing?