D&D 5E Archetype-Multiclass option initial concept

[UngeheuerLich]

Oh, good point. But really most classes get nice class features around 9th or 10th as well, so I am not certain if that was meant to be the 11th level archetype replacement as well. Maybe...

Bard gets expertise at level 10, and both inspiration dice and song of rest dice increase. They also get level 5 spells... So in my opinionnice class features are more than covered.

Compare that with a different full caster.

A wizard only increases arcane recovery a bit.
Druids get nothing (although they increase natural recovery and wild shape from a subclass)
Cleric gets divine intervention with 9-11% chance of success.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Bard gets expertise at level 10, and both inspiration dice and song of rest dice increase. They also get level 5 spells... So in my opinionnice class features are more than covered.

Compare that with a different full caster.

A wizard only increases arcane recovery a bit.
Druids get nothing (although they increase natural recovery and wild shape from a subclass)
Cleric gets divine intervention with 9-11% chance of success.

Well, I am not too worried about Bards, considering how I feel about them in general. I'll work with it when/if the time comes.

 

[Salthorae]

@dnd4vr Your house game sounds like its basically nothing like the PHB rulebook when it comes to many things based on all the different threads you post up about changing things and how your table does it this way or that.

Not bad, just interesting to me that you guys change so many things.

This is one that could be problematic from an ability combination standpoint potentially. The abilities are "locked" behind either a thematic or mechanical wall of X levels in certain classes because "reasons". Some of those "reasons" may be balance ones while others are Thematic, etc.

I'd probably have to look at a case by case use of this ability if it were to play at my table.

 

[aco175]

I wanted to see something like this for a while as well. I have not had a single multi-classed PC in 5e yet. It is not a bad thing, but curious. I, myself liked the 4e classes like sword-mage and duskblade where they were full classes, but acted a lot like MC classes.

I can see something where you get to pick some abilities from each class as you gain levels. Maybe options do not open as soon based on any prerequisites. Say you want to be a fighter/wizard and you want heavy armor and all the weapons and cantrips at first level, but you cannot get 1st level spells without giving up heavy armor. Then at 2nd level you want 2nd wind instead of 1st level spells. You get options fro each class to make a fighter/wizard or a wizard/fighter.

If you multiclass like this you may not get the extra attack until 7-8 level, which is ok

 

[DND_Reborn]

@dnd4vr Your house game sounds like its basically nothing like the PHB rulebook when it comes to many things based on all the different threads you post up about changing things and how your table does it this way or that.

Not bad, just interesting to me that you guys change so many things.

This is one that could be problematic from an ability combination standpoint potentially. The abilities are "locked" behind either a thematic or mechanical wall of X levels in certain classes because "reasons". Some of those "reasons" may be balance ones while others are Thematic, etc.

I'd probably have to look at a case by case use of this ability if it were to play at my table.

Yeah, at this point we have a lot of house-rules anyway. My best friend told me just to make my own game LOL.

It basically comes down to there are elements of 5E that I really like, but growing up and playing 1E/2E through school and college and beyond, there are things I don't like as well.

Most of the house-rules are minor. We altered a lot of the races to balance them out. Once you make your character, though, that aspect is done. We have custom rules for many classes, again to offer variety and options we feel were lacking. All told, I think we are sitting on about 20 pages of house-rules. We have also tried lots of different options, and dropped ones that didn't work out as planned.

As for this idea, I made a spreadsheet showing the features that would likely be granted via the archetype-multiclass option, and they seem fine to me. Keep in mind since these features are only up to level 6 or 7 in the multiclass, you are giving up higher level features in your RAW archetype for lower level class features.

This weekend I'll have time to fully write it up and hopefully any issues will become apparent if that is the case.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I wanted to see something like this for a while as well. I have not had a single multi-classed PC in 5e yet. It is not a bad thing, but curious. I, myself liked the 4e classes like sword-mage and duskblade where they were full classes, but acted a lot like MC classes.

I can see something where you get to pick some abilities from each class as you gain levels. Maybe options do not open as soon based on any prerequisites. Say you want to be a fighter/wizard and you want heavy armor and all the weapons and cantrips at first level, but you cannot get 1st level spells without giving up heavy armor. Then at 2nd level you want 2nd wind instead of 1st level spells. You get options fro each class to make a fighter/wizard or a wizard/fighter.

If you multiclass like this you may not get the extra attack until 7-8 level, which is ok

Actually, you won't get Extra Attack until level 10+ since all the classes that have Extra Attack have other features, which you would get at 3rd level and 6th or 7th level. Getting Extra Attack at level 10+ seems very reasonable to me anyway.

 

[aco175]

Actually, you won't get Extra Attack until level 10+ since all the classes that have Extra Attack have other features, which you would get at 3rd level and 6th or 7th level. Getting Extra Attack at level 10+ seems very reasonable to me anyway.

Is what you you are proposing more of a 50/50 split class or is there options to be more 75/25, if I wanted more fighter or more mage?

 

[dagger]

So, do you like this as an alternative for multiclassing then?

I can share our current house-rules for multiclassing, but it leads to very powerful characters. Our game is geared for that, but if yours isn't it can unbalance things. Let me know if you're interested.

I do like it, and think it would be better than the default rules.

My preferred method would be something like how 1e/2e does it, but that is probably not very popular.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Is what you you are proposing more of a 50/50 split class or is there options to be more 75/25, if I wanted more fighter or more mage?

Actually, it is more of a 67/33 split LOL. The idea will basically give your subclass features up to their 6th or 7th level or so.

I will give you a concrete example (which the specifics might alter slightly once I write it all up...):

The Wizard (Rogue)

1. Spellcasting, Arcane Recovery
2. SUBCLASS: Rogue: Expertise, Sneak Attack (1d6), Thieves' Cant
3. -
4. ASI
5. -
6. SUBCLASS: Rogue: Cunning Action, SA (2d6)
7. -
8. ASI
9. -
10. SUBCLASS: Rgoue: Uncanny Dodge, SA (3d6)
11. -
12. ASI
13. -
14. SUBCLASS: Rogue: Expertise, Evasion, SA (4d6)
15. -
16. ASI
17. -
18. Spell Mastery
19. ASI
20. Signature Spell

(Note: I might alter the SA progression to lower it to max 3d6.)

So, you are a Wizard, but your subclass is Rogue, so at what was your Arcane Tradition (archetype) levels, you can features from the base-class of Rogue. Now, are all these Rogue features a worthy trade-off for the normal Arcane Tradition options? I would think so, but others might not.

The point is you are a full Wizard and part rogue. It is not a 50/50 split, but more than 75/25, which is why I think it is best as 67/33.

Now, compare that to this:

The Rogue (Wizard)

1. Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves; Cant
2. Cunning Action
3. SUBCLASS: Wizard: Spellcasting (1st level spells), Ritual Casting
4. ASI
5. Uncanny Dodge
6. Expertise
7. Evasion, Wizard (2nd level spells)
8. ASI
9. SUBCLASS: Wizard: Arcane Recovery
10. ASI
11. Reliable Talent
12. ASI
13. SUBCLASS: Wizard: 3rd level spells
14. Blindsense
15. Slippery Mind, Wizard
16. ASI
17. SUBCLASS: Wizard: 4th level spells
18. Elusive
19. ASI
20. Stroke of Luck

Now, after 9th level there are no subclass features, which kind of sucks, but you are gaining spells still and having all the Wizard spells (up to 4th level eventually) at your disposal is pretty good in its own way IMO. The spell progression would be close to what Arcane Trickster gets, but slightly improved.

So, in this case you are a full Rogue and part Wizard.

Like I said, I have to work on it and write it all up for a first draft when I have time.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I do like it, and think it would be better than the default rules.

My preferred method would be something like how 1e/2e does it, but that is probably not very popular.

We currently do old-school 1E/2E multiclassing and it works great, but it is very powerful and leads to very strong combinations! Use with caution!

Some differences to note:

(THIS IS ONLY TO OUR CURRENT HOUSE-RULES, not the idea of this thread.)

You have character level and class level. You must choose your primary class. This dictates your skills and saving throw proficiencies. You gain one skill for your secondary class and one of their saving throw proficiencies.

Your character level is determine by total XP. Your character level determines your HD, proficiency bonus, and when you gain ASI (4, 8, 12, 16, & 19).

Ex. A character with 36000 XP is 8th character level.

Your class level is determined by dividing your total XP by the number of classes you have.

Ex. The above character with 36000 XP would have 18000 in two classes (making them 6th level each) or 12000 in three classes (making them 5th level in each).

Suppose for this example we made a Fighter/Rogue. He would be Fighter 6/ Rogue 6 (CL 8). The (CL 8) tells the player he is 8th character level. Selecting Rogue as the primary class gives 4 skills from the Rogue list and proficiency in DEX and INT saves. Having Fighter as the secondary gives 1 skill from the Fighter list and your choice of save proficiency in STR or CON.

This character would have all the features (including choosing subclasses) of a Fighter 6 AND a Rogue 6. Now, as features go, that RAW would require a 12th level character! So, you can see how having features akin to a 12th level character but at level 8 is powerful, right? True, you don't have as powerful individual features maybe, but the collection of more weaker features is very strong.

Now, this character would have proficiency +3 (8th level, remember?) and two ASIs (4th and 8th levels). As a Fighter 6, you would gain an additional ASI as your fighter feature. We play the bonus Fighter ASIs and the bonus Rogue ASI MUST be used on a feat, however. So, this character would gain a feat for Fighter 6.

In 1E/2E multiclassing, HP would be 6d10 (fighter) + 6d8 (rogue), averaged out. We do it differently (of course, LOL!).

You gain HD according to character level and medium-sized characters gain d8's. So, you would begin with 8 at 1st level, and having 7d8 more by the time you reached character level 8. (Small-sized creatures get d6's, sorry. ). You apply your CON bonus to each HD as normal.

Your HP are modified by your classes. Each level of Barbarian adds +2; and, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger adds +1 to HP. This sample character is Fighter 6, so gains +6 hp for those fighter levels.

Each level of Sorcerer and Wizard subtracts 1 hp per level of those classes.

While this probably seems confusing, it works well because we were running into the problem of having strong features (requiring more powerful foes), but not enough HP to face them. This way there is a HP boost that makes them viable to face stronger enemies.

Summary:

Fighter 6/ Rogue 6 (CL 8)
HP: 8 (level 1) + 7d8 + 8 * CON mod + 6 (fighter)
HD: 8d8
Skills: 4 Rogue + 1 Fighter + background as normal
Saves: DEX, INT, (STR or CON)
Proficiency: +3
ASI: 4th and 8th, bonus feat at Fighter 6

Once again, this system works very well for balance, but makes very strong characters and for a power-gamer style table. It is fun, but takes some real balancing when creating encounters.

If you want further clarification or another example, please let me know.