D&D 5E Archetype-Multiclass option initial concept

[Esker]

For AT and EK specifically, I've kicked around a variant multiclassing option along the lines of the following: when you level up, you can choose to devote a level to your casting ability. When doing so, you do not receive any new features from your class or subclass, but your caster level is increased by 1, which bumps up both your spell slots and your spells known as if you had attained 3 levels in your class.

So it would basically be like taking a wizard level, but you don't start up a second list of spells known and you don't get wizard class features; instead you accelerate your caster progression from your main class.

So, for example, an arcane trickster could take a casting level at 6th, delaying expertise but learning two 2nd level spells as if they were 8th level in AT, one of which must be enchantment or illusion.

If they took two more caster levels, they would get another cantrip, 3rd level slots, two more 2nd level enchantment/illusion spells known and two 3rd level spells known, one of which must be enchantment/illusion.

They are now 8th level but have a caster level of 5, with a number of cantrips, wizard spells and spell slots as a 5th level wizard (but with the AT school restrictions). But not arcane recovery or ritual casting, nor a wizard subclass.

Then, if they went back to rogue, they'd get additional expertise at 9th, followed by evasion and a caster level bump at 10th (per 1/3 of 7 rounded up), giving one more 3rd level enchantment/illusion spell known as at AT 16.

So at 10th, you'd have 7th level rogue features and a limited version of 5th level wizard features: 11 spells known of 1st-3rd level, 4 wizard cantrips, and 4/3/3 spell slots.

Compare to an AT 7 / Wizard 3 under RAW, who has 11 1st level spells known, 4 2nd level spells, 6 cantrips, and 4/3/2 spell slots, ritual casting, two spell levels of arcane recovery, and a level 2 wizard subclass feature.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I love it, and honestly, it's essentially the same idea I've been working on myself (a sign of good design is when multiple people come up with the same idea independently). I've actually been working on a long post on this very topic.

Cool! Glad to hear it. I'd be interested of course to see what you have as well.

One of the things I wish was done in 5E was to keep the archetype feature awards consistent across classes. Most start at 3rd, then around 6th, 11th, and 14th ot 15th roughly. Some are much different though.

 

[DND_Reborn]

For AT and EK specifically, I've kicked around a variant multiclassing option along the lines of the following: when you level up, you can choose to devote a level to your casting ability. When doing so, you do not receive any new features from your class or subclass, but your caster level is increased by 1, which bumps up both your spell slots and your spells known as if you had attained 3 levels in your class.

So it would basically be like taking a wizard level, but you don't start up a second list of spells known and you don't get wizard class features; instead you accelerate your caster progression from your main class.

So, for example, an arcane trickster could take a casting level at 6th, delaying expertise but learning two 2nd level spells as if they were 8th level in AT, one of which must be enchantment or illusion.

If they took two more caster levels, they would get another cantrip, 3rd level slots, two more 2nd level enchantment/illusion spells known and two 3rd level spells known, one of which must be enchantment/illusion.

They are now 8th level but have a caster level of 5, with a number of cantrips, wizard spells and spell slots as a 5th level wizard (but with the AT school restrictions). But not arcane recovery or ritual casting, nor a wizard subclass.

Then, if they went back to rogue, they'd get additional expertise at 9th, followed by evasion and a caster level bump at 10th (per 1/3 of 7 rounded up), giving one more 3rd level enchantment/illusion spell known as at AT 16.

So at 10th, you'd have 7th level rogue features and a limited version of 5th level wizard features: 11 spells known of 1st-3rd level, 4 wizard cantrips, and 4/3/3 spell slots.

Compare to an AT 7 / Wizard 3 under RAW, who has 11 1st level spells known, 4 2nd level spells, 6 cantrips, and 4/3/2 spell slots, ritual casting, two spell levels of arcane recovery, and a level 2 wizard subclass feature.

Hmm... that isn't a bad idea, but for me it doesn't change what I would like: mainly getting full-spell access instead of limited, more like true mulitlcassing. Also, I don't know how well some people would be able to follow the process.

Of course, many people like the archetypes, so wouldn't like my idea because it replaces archetypes with a multiclassing option.

 

[Esker]

Hmm... that isn't a bad idea, but for me it doesn't change what I would like: mainly getting full-spell access instead of limited, more like true mulitlcassing. Also, I don't know how well some people would be able to follow the process.

Of course, many people like the archetypes, so wouldn't like my idea because it replaces archetypes with a multiclassing option.

Yeah, my idea is meant as a variant alternative, not a replacement. For my character I wanted faster magic progression than the base AT, but multiclassing into wizard requires too many levels to actually get higher level spells than you'd have single classed. So the idea is to allow a sort of slider where you can accelerate your casting at the expense of your base rogue features without having to start over as a caster in another class.

As for the complexity, I think I made it sound worse than it is. Take your regular levels and add 3x your caster levels. Your spells known and spell slots are as a single classed AT at that level. Your other features are based on your regular levels only.

 

[dagger]

Not trying to derail but this thread definitely highlights for me my dislike of the way 3.0/3.5/5 multi-classing is handled.

 

[Salthorae]

So, I got this idea after being inspired by another thread. If we think of archetypes like Arcane Trickster as a pseudo-multiclass character, how about a simple multiclass-theme archetype to replace multiclassing (or offer another option)?

My idea is this: you take the features for each class using levels 1 - 6 or 7, and turn them into the features for the archetype. Every class can use a multiclass archetype for any other class. Whether or not prerequisites are required is up in the air, but probably not.

Example: a Ranger gains archetype features at 3rd, 7th, 11th, and 15th. So following the Barbarian archetype adds the following:

Starting at 3rd level, you gain rage and unarmored defense.
At 7th level, you gain reckless attack and danger sense.
When you reach 11th level, you gain extra attack (won't help a ranger...) and fast movement.
Beginning at 15th level, you gain feral instinct.

Applying the Barbarian archetype to a Rogue would be at 3rd, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels. The rogue would benefit from the extra attack, but not until 13th level.

I kind of like this idea because you can gain some features for a second class and it would replace having to make an archetype choice (which our table is rarely thrilled about, with notable exceptions...).

Obviously this would have to be worked up for each class to become an archetype-multiclass option. Spell progressions would be similar to Eldritch Knight/ Arcane Trickster, some features might not translate well, and so on. This is just sort of a jumping-off point.

Thoughts? Comments?

Check out this post I threw up there in 2015. It's one aspect of what you're proposing here.

I've used the intraclass multiclassing, what I call "multipathing", since 2015 and it's been great for players.

Allowing people to just grab abilities from other classes... not sure how that would play out necessarily, but it would be interesting to see in play.

 

[GlassJaw]

Allowing people to just grab abilities from other classes... not sure how that would play out necessarily, but it would be interesting to see in play.

What you are describing is a generic class system, either Warrior/Adept/Expert or Strong Hero/Tough Hero, etc (the d20 Modern system). Class abilities are then selected a la carte from a subset of abilities based on the base class.

Because of BA and modularity of the subclass system, 5E could handle it fairly well. From a design standpoint, I find the power equivalency to be much more transparent in 5E. In addition, balancing power is more forgiving because the overall power scale has been toned down and players have fewer customization knobs to turn.

 

[Salthorae]

What you are describing is a generic class system, either Warrior/Adept/Expert or Strong Hero/Tough Hero, etc (the d20 Modern system). Class abilities are then selected a la carte from a subset of abilities based on the base class.

Because of BA and modularity of the subclass system, 5E could handle it fairly well. From a design standpoint, I find the power equivalency to be much more transparent in 5E. In addition, balancing power is more forgiving because the overall power scale has been toned down and players have fewer customization knobs to turn.

I feel like just opening up the buffet so to speak will have more repercussions than anticipated.

First one on my mind is probably Sorcerer picking up the Assassinate class ability without actually sacrificing three levels of sorcerer spellcasting to get there.

It's situational, and nova, but when it hits those extra three levels of spellcasting boost the potential damage output of whatever spell they cast for the feature.

And I haven't fully thought out the implications in those two things, I might be missing something that tames it somewhat, but that's why it was my first thought

 

[DND_Reborn]

Check out this post I threw up there in 2015. It's one aspect of what you're proposing here.

Interesting. We considered the idea of allowing someone to multiclass within their own class a while ago, but it was more akin to RAW multiclassing.

Example: A Fighter 6 could be Fighter 6 (Champion 3/ Eldritch Knight 3).

 

[DND_Reborn]

Not trying to derail but this thread definitely highlights for me my dislike of the way 3.0/3.5/5 multi-classing is handled.

So, do you like this as an alternative for multiclassing then?

I can share our current house-rules for multiclassing, but it leads to very powerful characters. Our game is geared for that, but if yours isn't it can unbalance things. Let me know if you're interested.