log in or register to remove this ad

 

Archivist - long live the wizard, the wizard is dead.

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Ok, so basically the archivist from Heroes of horror is a divine spellcaster that uses a spellbook. He's a fairly useful replacement for the traditional cleric - some monster busting powers, some bookish nerdyness. Good fort and will saves, medium armour, bad BAB, 4 skill points per level.

However - he has a spellbook. Like a wizard, he gets free spells in that, from the cleric list.

Additionally, like any spellbook-caster, he may copy spells in from scrolls.

Only, someone in their infinite wisdom has decided that the spells he may copy in may be taken from any divine spell scroll at all.

Any of them. So druid, paladin and ranger spells are all there, as are any scrolls of domain spells that anyone happens to write out. That's pretty powerful in and of itself. Too powerful for my tastes, although somewhat tempered by the classes dual-stat dependancy, and the price of finding scrolls to scribe.

However, as we all know, if a cleric and a wizard get together to make a scroll, it's entirely possible for us to designate the cleric as being the creator of a scroll (as long as he contributes something, such as the scribe scroll feat, which the archivist gets free), while scribing a wizard spell. Usually this results in a useless curiosity - a divine scroll of an arcane spell, useable by none who have no access to use magic device.

In this case, however, the archivist is given free range to scribe any divine scroll they can get their hands on without care as to what spell list it's actually from.

Helloooo divine wish. Or whatever. Goodbye wizard.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Eloi

First Post
Wow. Druid, Paladin, and Ranger spells.. there are so many great 4th level Paladin spells that never see the light of day. This is wonderful news. :)
 

gabrion

First Post
Not just those clases, but any divine caster list in the game (including domain spells). One of my favorites is having Polymorph from the Adept spell list. Of course that's just one (very limited) example. Pretty much evey arcane spell in the game has been reprinted somewhere as a divine spell though, so you don't even need to worry about co-creating a spell.

And if you are really worried about not having scrolls to learn from, just get a Warlock cohort and they can make you any scroll in the game.

Really, the wizard is dead.
 
Last edited:

Thanee

First Post
As long as you leave out the silliness of creating divine arcane scrolls, I don't see such a big problem there. They don't have domains/domain powers and turning ability, right?

Maybe it would be necessary to remove the access to domain spells, dunno.

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee said:
As long as you leave out the silliness of creating divine arcane scrolls, I don't see such a big problem there.
I'd agree. Even if the rules do allow such a loophole, I cannot imagine it was the designers' intent to include it. It is, quite frankly, a silly possibility, IMO.
 

gabrion

First Post
Thanee said:
As long as you leave out the silliness of creating divine arcane scrolls, I don't see such a big problem there. They don't have domains/domain powers and turning ability, right?
It seems like one problem is that the game designers have reprinted most arcane spells as being part of some divine spell on some list somewhere, so it's just a matter of finding the right source.

Maybe it would be necessary to remove the access to domain spells, dunno.

Bye
Thanee
That would probably be a good idea, cause it seems like domain spells, being a gift from a diety to a cleric, would be tightly guarded.
 

Thanee

First Post
gabrion said:
It seems like one problem is that the game designers have reprinted most arcane spells as being part of some divine spell on some list somewhere...
I don't think this is true.

That would probably be a good idea, cause it seems like domain spells, being a gift from a diety to a cleric, would be tightly guarded.
...and those are the spots, where the 'arcane spells' lurk. ;)

Bye
Thanee
 

Daywalker

First Post
Looks over new class....

So, he's got spell books and does research, and that research allows the members of his party to be more effective at fighting the evil in the world if they listen to him.

Great. It's Rupert Giles, the D&D character.
 

Jarrod

First Post
The real problem with "any divine" is that it includes classes with partial (and delayed) spellcasting ability. Ranger 1 spells can be more powerful than Cleric 1, because the ranger gets them later. Heck, Bless Weapon... 1st level spell that makes crits auto-confirm? Sign me up!

I'd keep them to clerics in my world, with any other spell going through DM approval first. I love the idea, and it'd work great with a _lot_ of stuff but... man, potential for being broken.

Spell lists are balanced within themselves, not between multiple lists.
 

kigmatzomat

First Post
Give 'em a half measure: they know the spell but cannot cast the spell. They can put non-cleric divine spells in their books which lets them a) use spell-completion items with that spell, b)use spell-trigger items with that spell, and c)make magic items that use that spell.
 

I think it's balanced

And I love this class.

Sure, access to Paladin/Rgr/Druid spells as cleric spells of the same level is powerful. But this class gives up a lot for that.

Remember, he's still expected to be the party healer. He gives up the ability to be a secondary combatant (with his poor BAB, HD, etc). He gives up automatic access to the entire cleric list (this is a big deal!) . He gives up domains. He gives up turning ability.

I think it's clear that the 'make a divine version of an arcane spell on a scroll' gambit is an abuse that shouldn't be allowed. Otherwise, I'd gladly allow this class in a campaign I ran.

And yeah, he is 'Rupert Giles, D&D character'. And I love that.

Really, I would be more worried about it being underpowered.

Ken
 


I think it all comes down to how the DM runs their game. If they are the type of DM that says, "Yeah, you can find any spell you want as long as you pay the cost" then the class is open to abuse. However, all the games I have DMed or played in (bar one) have DMs that "keep it real".

Realistically, how many Druids scribe scrolls? If you have a Kinko Druid Spell Megaplex with 3 hours free parking in your game, then I suppose it's easy but in all the games I have had experience in, I have not seen a Druid scribe a single scroll.

As for Domain spells, fine if it's the church that you belong to or one of a fraternal or maternal faith, but I don't see churches of opposing faiths lining up to hand you their domain spells on a scroll except with a sizeable donation/extortive payment.

Natural roleplaying and commonsense should define reasonable limits for this. When done this way, that Miasma spell you got from that crazy druid becomes very special indeed.

However, I think the biggest deficiency the class has compared to your run-of-the-mill cleric is lack of spontaneous casting. This is what makes it hard for an archivist to choose their spells. As such, I see them as a suitable class that should be a lot of fun - without raining on the wizard's or cleric's parade.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Herremann the Wise said:
However, I think the biggest deficiency the class has compared to your run-of-the-mill cleric is lack of spontaneous casting. This is what makes it hard for an archivist to choose their spells. As such, I see them as a suitable class that should be a lot of fun - without raining on the wizard's or cleric's parade.
The fact that they don't automatically know the cure series of spells gives them a lot of leeway to simply not ever learn them, and be able to avoid the role of party bandaid.

The rest of your arguments are that role-playing and a restrictive DM will fix the problems. Yeah, like that's an excuse for bad rules.

I agree that the idea of the class is great. Personally I think the execution is... stupid and flawed. Mainly because I don't believe for a second that the cleric list is that much less powerful than the wizard list that it justifies what this class gets (better saves, more feats, more special abilities, more hitpoints). The combination of any divine list in the game is certainly no less powerful.
 

Saeviomagy said:
The fact that they don't automatically know the cure series of spells gives them a lot of leeway to simply not ever learn them, and be able to avoid the role of party bandaid.

The rest of your arguments are that role-playing and a restrictive DM will fix the problems. Yeah, like that's an excuse for bad rules.
I can see your point here with bad rules - rules should be foolproof, regardless of who uses them. However, the situation I mentioned means it most likely will not be an issue in certain games but it would in others. I was just pointing this out as it had not been mentioned. I was not really looking for an argument on the matter. :)

Saeviomagy said:
I agree that the idea of the class is great. Personally I think the execution is... stupid and flawed. Mainly because I don't believe for a second that the cleric list is that much less powerful than the wizard list that it justifies what this class gets (better saves, more feats, more special abilities, more hitpoints). The combination of any divine list in the game is certainly no less powerful.
The Cleric list is more powerful than the wizard's in terms of undead. Aside from this though, I think the balance is still in favour of the wizard (although it is counterbalanced once more by the cleric instantly getting access to all spells of a new level while the wizard has to spend time working up his or her list).

The possible inclusion of the Druid list however is the crux of the matter. Left unchecked (go see the Kinko's Druid Spell Megaplex with 3 hours free parking style), then the archivist most likely is right up there with the cleric, wizard and druid. However, in "real" game terms, I can see its power just slightly behind those three. Obviously, this is just my opinion. If I ever to get to play an archivist, I think I'd have a more first hand and useful experience to relate.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Most Liked Threads

Advertisement2

Advertisement4

Top