*Archtypical Paladin Quandry* The 'Are you a Paladin?' Question.

[pawsplay]

Which doesn't do diddly squat against mind-affecting compulsions.

Oh, right. In that case, the paladin can simply refuse to answer usefully. "I did not come here to talk about me." Also, it's a 25 foot emanation, and has a duration of minutes. If I were the paladin, I would just casually wander about, in and out of the affected area, if it were absolutely necessary to answer that question. But at the point at which you are standing right next to someone and submitting voluntarily to compulsion spells, I hope you know why you are there and what you plan to do.

If a ruler did this routinely, I think that ruler would become a ripe target for illusions.

 

[Slife]

A first level spell that circumvents this (thus remaining level-independent)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ventriloquism.htm


The paladin doesn't have to answer. His wisecracking magic-user buddy might answer twice, but the paladin never does.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Lying is specifically mentioned in the code. Willfully violating the code loses the paladin powers. If he's not smart enough to find a way to avoid the situation, then he should also be self-sacrificing to give up his powers for the greater good of his mission in the city.

If he has to pervert what he stands for in order to keep his powers, then he's already lost.


And yeah, it's a stupid situation designed to punish a player for choosing Paladin. The player should quit the game and firebomb the DM's house... or something.

 

[pawsplay]

Lying is specifically mentioned in the code. Willfully violating the code loses the paladin powers. If he's not smart enough to find a way to avoid the situation, then he should also be self-sacrificing to give up his powers for the greater good of his mission in the city.

BZZT! If that's the correct choice, then why is he penalized? Self-sacrifice that violates the paladin's code? Either he should retain his powers, or he is not really self-sacrificing, he is just sacrificing (his paladinhood).

Also, where does it say that violating the code loses his powers? An evil act is the only thing specified as doing that. A violation of some other provision might do that, but not necessarily.

 

[3d6]

He would not lose his powers, as he did not commit a "gross violation" of the code.

A paladin who [...] grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities.

 

[Vocenoctum]

He would not lose his powers, as he did not commit a "gross violation" of the code.

The code says no lying, he intentionally lies. Gross violation of code.

The paladin lives within his code, otherwise what's the point of the code?
The situation is screwed, fine, but that doesn't change his code. Sure he should find a way around waiting in line for the question, or perhaps he's not called paladin, or this or that.

Either way, if he lies he violates his code. If the lie is unintentional than it's no big deal, but if he knowingly and willingly lies, it's a gross violation.

If a cleric must desecrate an altar to his god to enter a city, that doesn't mean he's not desecrating an altar just because it's required. Sometimes the right course still carries a penalty, the paladin should be willing to pay the penalty if that's what it takes to further the cause of good. He can atone later with remorse for what was needed, that doesn't change what it is.

 

[Endur]

Suppose the Paladin rides up the front gate on his white horse and he says, "I'm a Paladin."

Mr. Low Level Grunt is going say, "Let me tell the Sarge that you are here."

Sarge says to Mr. Low Level Grunt, "I'll go get the Lieutenant."

Lt. say to Sarge, "I'll inform the Captain."

Captain says to Lt., "The evil warlord must know a Paladin has come!"

Evil Warlord comes out to the front gate. Paladin smites Evil Warlord.

Paladin accomplishes his quest, and he didn't even have to slay any non-evil minions who were just defending their homes.

Sometimes telling the truth is the best policy.

 

[pawsplay]

Either way, if he lies he violates his code. If the lie is unintentional than it's no big deal, but if he knowingly and willingly lies, it's a gross violation.

A gross violation would be lying for a bad reason. Simply lying is not a gross violation, and lying in the cause of right and good, when the alternative is complete and utter stupidity, is barely an infraction.

If a cleric must desecrate an altar to his god to enter a city, that doesn't mean he's not desecrating an altar just because it's required. Sometimes the right course still carries a penalty, the paladin should be willing to pay the penalty if that's what it takes to further the cause of good. He can atone later with remorse for what was needed, that doesn't change what it is.

That's just wrong. A paladin loses his powers for failures to uphold his code of conduct. If he does what is demanded of his code of conduct, how can he lose his powers for it? There may be penalties for following the cause of good, but losing paladin abilities for following the cause of good is nonsensical.

 

[WayneLigon]

It's a mute point because whatever BBEG is having this done also has a cleric behind the person asking the question with Zome of Truth up.

Moot point. Moot.

Yeah, if I'm a BBEG, I certainly will be tying up a couple of tenth level clerics (we'll assume that ten minutes per casting is the minimum acceptable time) for every gate I have (a couple, because the spell only has a 20' radius and most gates are going to be bigger than that); each one of them - if they have a 14 wisdom - will be able to cast that spell 6 times before they go off shift. That covers one hour of time. But let's assume he's really paranoid and he's commanded them to prepare all their spell slots with that one spell; that gives each one about 90 more minutes in a 24-hour-period he can cover. We'll assume the BBEG only keeps his city gates open for ten hours a day.

That's eight tenth level clerics per gate per day that do nothing at all but cast that spell. Creating wands and scrolls at tenth caster level gets prohibitavely expensive damn quick; you're using up roughly one wand a day, and you're taking three days to make a single wand of Zone of Truth. (That's just at the minimum caster level, too; you'd need to make it at 1oth caster level, but I can't remember how that works). So that means you have even more clerics, all of have the Craft Wand feat, doing nothing but making this one magic item.

For simplicity's sake, they are telling people to 'relax' as they are questioned (ie, willingly give up the saving throw they'd normally get).

Can you see how utterly unworkable this is? The sheer cost of it alone is staggering, even just assuming they're paying for materials (this is government work, after all) - they can only enslave so many people (we'll assume he's not paying the clerics or the wand makers for their time), and the materials still have a cost associated with them.

 

[pawsplay]

And rogues with slippery mind will still walk on through, and the effects of the zone can easily be thwarted by simple illusions.