Are CRPGs really role-playing games?

[ThirdWizard]

No, I am equating "attempt[ing] to provide a similar play experience" of a system with "the representation of the behavior or characteristics of" that system.

The problem with that is that many early P&P RPGs sought to "attempt to provide a similar play experience" to D&D. It doesn't mean it has to be a "simulation" it is imitation. Is the Lord of the Rings movie a simulation of the books? Is Die Hard 2 a simulation of Die Hard? Rugby and Football offer similar play experiences (I guess) but that doesn't mean Football is a simulation of Rugby. Things can be similar and yet one not be pretending to be the other.

I take it that you do not argue with "the use of another system, esp. a computer program designed for the purpose."

You could technically say that a CRPG is a simulation of a CRPG, I guess, since it doesn't really exist. But, I don't dispute what a simulation is.

Do you honestly claim that early computer "RPGs" did not attempt to representat the behavior or characteristics of D&D or similar systems?

Represent, no. Inspired by, yes.

 

[Kem]

Yes, but others might have different criteria.

Honestly, I am surprised that there have been so many "No" votes.

RC

I'm not. This is a biased audience.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Absolutely.

Okay, we must be using two completely different definitions of simulation.

You seem to be saying anything like something else is a simulation. I'm saying anything that pretends to be something else is a simulation. The Simpsons movie in no way pretends to be the TV series. It's based off of the TV series, it has the characters in common, and it is inspired by it.

Google is not a simulation of Yahoo! and Gmail is not a simulation of Hotmail.

 

[Ourph]

Neither dice, nor rules, nor game designers control your character in a role-playing game more than the participants desire.

First, the only way to change the way the dice, rules and game designers control your character is to change the rules of the game. The same is true of cRPGs (with patches, hacks, updates, etc.), so there's no distinction to be made. Second, the standard you seem to be applying is unlimited control and no RPG of any stripe offers that. If the dice, the rules and the game designer exerts no control over the actions your character is capable of taking in the game, then you are no longer playing a game, you are writing fiction. In order to be said to be "playing a game" it is generally accepted that you are following at least some of the rules of said game. If the standard for roleplaying games is "unlimited character actions" then, by definition, any game with rules is not an RPG (and as far as I know, D&D has always contained rules, many of which specifically limit character's actions). Ergo, by your definition, D&D is not an RPG but a "simulation" of an RPG.

And Gary was pretty clear in the 1st Ed PHB that, if you found your DM was controlling your character more than you desire, you should quit that game and find another (or start one yourself).

This is obvious pedantry, unworthy of your communication skills RC. The DM is final arbiter of the rules (also a position Gary espouses regularly). The rules control a character's actions in the game. The DM is final arbiter or the imaginary milieu (again, a position supported by Gary). The milieu limits a character's actions in the game. We're not talking about a DM directly controlling a character (and I think you know that) any more than we are talking about the CPU directly controlling a character in a cRPG. We're talking about limitations on the player's control. The DM, rules, dice, etc. setting limits on what a character is allowed to do is just as natural to the PnP RPG experience as the DM creating encounters or placing treasure. As a result, PnP RPGs don't offer "unlimited" character control to the players any more than cRPGs do.

 

[Kem]

CRPG: You simulate control of a character, whose parameters of choice are actually controlled (regulared; dominated) by one or more programmers.

Same as a "regular" RPG. Just replace Programmers with Dungeon Masters.

All I get from this whole RPG vs. CRPG arguement is that if you have a good DM its an RPG, if you don't it's not an RPG.

Oh yeah, and I have yet to see a game, that is an actual Role-Playing Game by the definition of "You control a character".

 

[Raven Crowking]

Okay, we must be using two completely different definitions of simulation.

You seem to be saying anything like something else is a simulation. I'm saying anything that pretends to be something else is a simulation. The Simpsons movie in no way pretends to be the TV series. It's based off of the TV series, it has the characters in common, and it is inspired by it.

I am saying that a simulation is any thing X that simulates another thing Y, especially in the case where the medium used in X and Y differ.

 

[Nate Jones]

RC, are applications such as Maptool, Fantasy Grounds and OpenRPG then not RPGs either, since they try to, as you put it, simulate the experience of table-top D&D?

 

[Ourph]

I am saying that a simulation is any thing X that simulates another thing Y, especially in the case where the medium used in X and Y differ.

That's a poor definition for a simulation (and not just because you use the word "simulate" to define "simulation").

 

[Doug McCrae]

Absolutely.

So every roleplaying game after OD&D isn't really a roleplaying game. It's a simulation of a roleplaying game.

You agree with Diaglo.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I am saying that a simulation is any thing X that simulates another thing Y, especially in the case where the medium used in X and Y differ.

Can you not use "simulate" in your definition of "simulation" please.