Are Essentials more old school or just a clever marketing ploy?

Just wanted to comment on this real quick... the rules you are talking about are not in the PHB, they are in the DMG... I personally think 4e would have been better served in making the rules available to both players and DM's (with a much more thorough explanation of how to adjudicate for the DM.) equally. I don't have my essentials RC with me right now, but does anyone know if they are included in the RC?

Kind of- It's not presented in the same way page 42 was. It's sort of expanded on throughout the parts where they talk about different checks, and improvising with skills and stuff.

There's a sidebar that talks about improvising from a player standpoint, and just going with whatever feels "natural" in the game world.

I think they do a decent job expressing that instead of "You can do this, with this check, or you can do that with this check" the idea is more, choose what you want to do, then decide how to arbitrate.
 

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What I'm trying to say is there is an opposite perspective here.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you... in fact I don't see your perspective as necessarily being the "opposite" of the perspective of many enjoying essentials...

Playing AD&D was like being in a straightjacket to us. You're an M.U. and you want to swing a sword, sorry, rule 27 says you CANNOT do that. You're a fighter and you want to climb? Sorry, there simply is no rule for that, you aren't a thief, you don't HAVE that class feature. Anything that wasn't considered as doable by the people that designed the classes was just not possible. Sometimes you could cover it with ability checks or secondary skills/NWPs. A LOT of the time you simply couldn't.

MANY character concepts were just impossible to realize in any sensible fashion in AD&D as well. You can be an elf that uses a sword and casts spells, but that's it, you can't be human, you can't just learn one sword fighting technique, you have to stop advancing at level 9 or 12, etc. It was a KLUNKY system. Classes were narrow and no real thought was given to being able to stretch them much beyond what they were set up to do. A ranger was NOTHING but a guy that runs around in the forest, etc. Lots of concepts simply fell between the cracks and weren't feasible.

Customizing your character? Forget it. There was really no such thing. Later in 2e that changed, but all that really showed was how brittle the system really was. The kits and options and whatnot simply imploded the system as soon as they were added.

Your problems in the above passage seemed to be based around general problems of pure class systems. IMO, it seems that you really aren't a fan of class systems and thus don't enjoy the benefits along with the disadvantages of more rigid class systems.

The options and choices available in 4e is very liberating to me. NOW I can free things up. The players, and the DM, can create characters and stories that really just didn't work well at all in the old days. It isn't total freedom, but it is a LOT of flexibility that didn't exist way back when.

But 4e has it's own limitations that are annoying to some people... Like how my PHB 1 fighter is crap if he has to use a bow (though this was never the case in previous editions)... I guess I have the choice to use the bow, but is it a good choice when all my powers don't work with it and my abilities are sub-optimal for it. We no longer have that problem with the Slayer (though far from an expert archer he's at least feasible as an archer in a pinch)...

I guess what I am saying is that a class system by it's very nature will be limited, and I think the issue is really one of first accepting the benefits and diadvantages that come with a class system and then deciding what limitations best fit your style. As an example, I felt 4e tried to codify and restrict one's role in a way more narrow way than the past editions did and it felt stiffling and limiting to me. YMMV of course

As for the whole "nobody bothers to do anything but use powers anymore" thing. I'm not really sure that is the fault of the presentation of POWERS. I think it has more to do with the presentation of encounters and how 4e lays out developing and adventure. It isn't really all that fluid a technique. What is presented to the players can easily become routine and buttoned down if you just follow the formula.

I think it's the fault of presenting the powers and not presenting the improvising rules to the players in the PHB. I also think that the tactical nature of the game and the dependency on teamwork to survive tends to mean you are usually in a much better position using powers (especially as they are a known quantity)... than you are trying to do stuff with rules you don't know. I guess I think it is both a function of 4e's presentation and an emergent property of play that many players rely more on their powers than anything else... especially players who may not be the most tactically adept and thus are struggling with deciding what and how to do stuff with just their main options... let alone whatever else they can think up...without messing their team up.

I think the more productive approach than trying to go back and chop away at player options is to really look at the organization of the game structure that surrounds what the player characters DO. Encounter design guidelines are not a bad thing, but the game just sort of stops there. It gives you a palette to use, but only to paint one kind of picture with. You CAN do a lot more with it, but the rules have made it seem like whatever you do has to fit into an encounter framework.

I've seen some discussions of this on a couple boards, but it seems like it has taken a while for the 4e community to start to really understand the tools and their strengths and weaknesses. Basically it seems to me like Essentials is a great answer to the wrong question.

And see for me I feel very much like 4e classic is D&D made for people who never particulaly enjoyed playing D&D... which your posts above kinda, sorta support. I've seen people talk about many of the things 4e "fixed" that were purely subjective things and I think for many part of what gave D&D a D&D "feel".

IMO, Essentials is moving back towards a D&D made for people who enjoyed playing D&D with all it's tropes, idiosyncracies, etc. Do I like all of those things? No, but what I do like about the D&D genre far outweighs what I don't (and I can always houserule stuff in or out.). What I didn't want was the designers deciding that D&D should loose a bunch of things tied to it's history for me. I think many of these tropes give the fanbase a sense of commonality when discussing "D&D" but also tend to define what makes playing D&D different than say playing Runequest, Earthdawn, Dragon Age or Stormbringer. YMMV of course.
 

Kind of- It's not presented in the same way page 42 was. It's sort of expanded on throughout the parts where they talk about different checks, and improvising with skills and stuff.

There's a sidebar that talks about improvising from a player standpoint, and just going with whatever feels "natural" in the game world.

I think they do a decent job expressing that instead of "You can do this, with this check, or you can do that with this check" the idea is more, choose what you want to do, then decide how to arbitrate.

See I honestly think, even the "improvising with skills" sidebars are a gigantic step in the right direction compared to PHB 1... but that's just me. I do wish though that they would've mentioned the improvising rules for combat to players, since they need to know about them just as much or more than the DM... not necessarily all the details but enough so that the players would have a feel or even a suggestion for how to adjudicate ad-hoc maneuvers (as well as understanding which maneuvers are probably not a good idea to try or won't work how they want them too.)
 

Yeah I noticed the same thing Scribble. The combination of emphasis on powers, the way encounters are presented/limited as AbdulAlhazrad points out, and lack of substantial improv guidelines (p 42 of DMG really doesnt offer much beyond damage guidelines even with updates) IMO makes it much easier for players to slip into being lazy. Rules interface and presentation effects gameplay. There's been a lot of anecdotal evidence of this change in our game group, older gamers at our FLGS, and posts here and over at Wizards that some 4e gamers have noticed this change. I think Essentials is a positive change in terms of encouraging improvisation, but I'm not convinced it improves on the encounter issue you identified Abdul.
 

That was actually one of their stated goals wasn't it? To make the Nentir Vale world, not fade away, but instead blend right into the rules?

Oh sure, could be. Thats constistent with my point...

But, what I did not say in my post that I should have: I am not seeing the sudden urge to improvise coming from essentials.

Back in our 2E days we would use an old saying:

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail

I don't think that has somehow changed.
 

See I honestly think, even the "improvising with skills" sidebars are a gigantic step in the right direction compared to PHB 1... but that's just me. I do wish though that they would've mentioned the improvising rules for combat to players, since they need to know about them just as much or more than the DM... not necessarily all the details but enough so that the players would have a feel or even a suggestion for how to adjudicate ad-hoc maneuvers (as well as understanding which maneuvers are probably not a good idea to try or won't work how they want them too.)

Well I guess they could have done more- but it's not just the suggested skill improv stuff. In the side bar it talks about as a player not just falling back on the combat stuff you can do, and instead try something else.

So it seems they're planting the "go ahead give it a try" seed, and then giving the DM the tools to decide how to run the action.

IE instead of how it was originally laid out as being something the rules don't cover, it's saying look at the action, and choose the best rule to cover it.

Yeah I noticed the same thing Scribble. The combination of emphasis on powers, the way encounters are presented/limited as AbdulAlhazrad points out, and lack of substantial improv guidelines (p 42 of DMG really doesnt offer much beyond damage guidelines even with updates) IMO makes it much easier for players to slip into being lazy. Rules interface and presentation effects gameplay.

Sure- I would say this is kind of true for any game with a good number of rules for doing things though.

When a game generally "lacks" rule based options, players are kind of forced to try to improv. When the game contains rules based options that are "close enough" they generally tend to fall back on them.

Possibly I think because of fear of the unknown... I know how this power will work- I don't always know how my DM will decide my improv will work- so they go for the known.

That said I have players who have always been this way even in editions that lacked options... They never did anything but what was on their sheet.

I also have players that constantly try to think outside the power card...

I don't think it's a "bad" thing that players tend to fall back on their listed powers. As long as they're having fun who cares.

I think though it's a good thing that the game books talk about improv being a part of the game. I think the ability to improv (on both sides of the screen) is probably what in my mind really sets table top RPGs apart from Computer RPGs.

"Hey kids you get all those neat powers you get in CRPGs... But guess what? Unlike cRPGs where those are your only options, in a tRPG you can try ANYTHING..."

Oh sure, could be. Thats constistent with my point...

But, what I did not say in my post that I should have: I am not seeing the sudden urge to improvise coming from essentials.

Oh... I guess I misunderstood what you were saying? What's improv have to do with Nentir Vale story elements?
 

Y (p 42 of DMG really doesnt offer much beyond damage guidelines even with updates) IMO makes it much easier for players to slip into being lazy. Rules interface and presentation effects gameplay. There's been a lot of anecdotal evidence of this change in our game group, older gamers at our FLGS, and posts here and over at Wizards that some 4e gamers have noticed this change. I think Essentials is a positive change in terms of encouraging improvisation, but I'm not convinced it improves on the encounter issue you identified Abdul.

The D&D Essentials Dungeon Master's Book (DMB) definitely expands on pg. 42 of the DMG. DMB Page 107-8 gives you the updated charts, but the real magic is the whole Using Checks section (pg. 101-109). It is a big tutorial on being flexible with checks.

Unfortunately, the Rules Compendium (RC) inexplicably leaves out the Damage By Level table and only provides the DCs By Level table on pg. 126. There is some improvisation guidance in the RC (e.g. improvising with skill X) but its not as concise as the DMB. This improv advice is also present in the Heroes of the X books.

As for showing DMs and Players how to improvise during combat, I think that is something that needs to be refined. I think there is much to be learned from the Penny Arcade video from PAX (Chris Perkins did a great saying yes moment when Jim Darkmagic used prestidigitation to make a bad guy look like the local rocks that the "Hell Cow" fed on).

I think that folks that have done much looser systems (e.g. Dread, Burning Wheel) or are brand new to RPGs tend to do things that most "experienced" 4e players wouldn't. For example...

When I was organizing D&D Encounters (DDE) the very first table we ran had a guy who took the Monk pre-gen PC and proceeded to describe all of his attacks like he was in the Matrix movie. He was running on walls and kicking folks in the head. His crowning moment of awesome was his leap onto a rickety rope bridge which he broke and road down to smash the final bad guy in a death from above attack. He did not use a single power for it. DM set DCs and damage and said do it. We waited with baited breath as he rolled and bam! Down went the bad guy.

The player was dropping in after being away from D&D since 2e in the 90s. He missed 3e completely. He just did things that the rest of us 3e/4e Vertrans would never think to do. It was humbling and exciting to watch.

My two coppers,
 
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Interesting. To me it is almost exactly the opposite. OD&D (1974) is the most liberating, conceptually advanced role playing game that I've ever encountered (I came to it late; started with Moldvay); virtually every other fantasy game seems like a defective copy.

You have your Fighting Man, your holy man (Cleric) and your wizard (Magic User). What can they do? Anything. My Fighting Man might be a heavily armed mercenary legionaire, yours might be a lightly armed sneak who fights as a peltast. My Cleric might be a pious servant of the One True God, yours might be a cynical sorcerer who manipulates various lesser spirits with irresistible incantations. My Magic User might be a pirate whose spellbook is contained in elaborate scrimshaw; yours might be an enchantress.

OK, then what happens when my magic user picks up a sword? He CANNOT DO IT by any rules prior to 3e (well, perhaps some 2e character option, I don't know). Even in OD&D he simply CANNOT swing the sword, there is a VOID in the rules there because the rules say he can only use a dagger, staff, or sling (IIRC). This is FINE as long as your 'pirate M.U.' doesn't want to be flavored with using some other weapon now and then.

You're talking about refluffing within the mechanics, which can be done with ANY edition of D&D, though 4e is more careful to avoid making assumptions about fluff in its mechanics than 3.x or AD&D was. In OD&D (and mostly in BECMI) the mechanics were so thin that it rarely presented a problem.

Can a given character operate a sailing vessel? Well, the MU who is a pirate can but the enchantress probably cannot (unless there is a reason why she can). Can a Fighting Man move silently? Well, my mercenary with his lorica cannot, but your peltast probably can. If we need to roll for it, just roll versus DEX and be done with it.

Well, I'll stay away from skill questions as that isn't really on topic, but NO the 'peltast' CANNOT move silently, there is no rule for it. You can't use a DEX check either because there IS a rule for thieves to move silently and if you use your DEX check to do it then you're stepping all over the thief (rogue in 2e). His chance to do it is quite a lot less than a DEX check would give him (or maybe more in some cases). Thus there is a giant gulf in the rules when it comes to what anyone EXCEPT a thief can do WRT to all the theif's class feature based abilities. Of course if you play pre-Greyhawk OD&D there IS no thief, but I think that is a bit beside the point.

As soon as you add skills, powers, etc. and codify all this stuff, you take options and flexibility away. With OD&D I can play any kind of fantasy game I want, bar none. The more exacting the detail in the rules, the more I am constrained in what I am able to do with the game. 4E is almost totally constrained into a single style.

I think that is totally untrue. I think the problem is that EVEN OD&D has already added a very large number of things that ONLY a specific class can do. You thus can't really put together different features in a modular way and get the character type you want. You can be a fighter and in OD&D indeed you can fluff that fighter almost however you want, etc. but you CANNOT have a sneaky fighter, or a fighter that can climb a wall, or Wizard that uses a sword, etc. Some of those things you can sort of clunkily achieve in AD&D with multi-classing at the cost of being a specific race, etc. In fact if you bring race into the equation AT ALL with any of those systems you're talking being HIGHLY restricted. You CANNOT make a dwarf wizard, it is simply forbidden. Again you can toss out those rules (race/class restrictions and level limits) but they did exist for a reason, at least to some extent (making humans a worthwhile race to play).

Pretty much ALL of those issues are dealt with by 4e (and they were dealt with in 3.x as well, though some might say more or less elegantly).

Essentials seems like a step in the right direction to me, though obviously with my White Box I already own the perfect FRPG and have no reason to ever buy another except out of curiosity. 4E as it stands comes off a bit like a hybrid of a role playing game and a board game. That's not an entirely bad thing... board games are doing well right now. But if 4E wants to be a gateway game (in the sense that people actually start with it as their first RPG) then it needs to be simpler... Essentials makes it simpler.

Essentials removes flexibility that existed in core 4e. Classes are now 'baked in' to certain features and can't vary them. That narrows the amount of conceptual space each class can occupy. I cannot make an Essentials ranger that is a veteran archer of the king's army because he HAS to be some kind of woods roving guy. It is baked into his class. The core 4e PHB1 Ranger has NO such restriction, he's basically just a bow/two-weapon using warrior. His other characteristics are pretty much whatever you want and the 'Ranger' label is just a name to put on the sheet so you know where to look up the rules you're using for that character.

The same can be said for most of the other core 4e classes. They each certainly have limits and a minor wart or two as far as that kind of thing goes like the Ranger MUST take either Dungeoneering or Nature by RAW, but the concept was fairly well executed. The Essentials classes are MUCH MUCH more pigeonholed. In that respect Essentials is purely a step backwards.

Now, if they continue to coexist on an equal footing then there's no real issue. We can all have what we want, and if Slayer suites your character concept then added flexibility there is not wanted or needed, so fine. OTOH the core classes are nice in that if you really want to have your concept evolve over time you can do it. Honestly though it isn't a big deal.
 

Yeah I noticed the same thing Scribble. The combination of emphasis on powers, the way encounters are presented/limited as AbdulAlhazrad points out, and lack of substantial improv guidelines (p 42 of DMG really doesnt offer much beyond damage guidelines even with updates) IMO makes it much easier for players to slip into being lazy. Rules interface and presentation effects gameplay. There's been a lot of anecdotal evidence of this change in our game group, older gamers at our FLGS, and posts here and over at Wizards that some 4e gamers have noticed this change. I think Essentials is a positive change in terms of encouraging improvisation, but I'm not convinced it improves on the encounter issue you identified Abdul.
I have to agree that I feel that 4e does engender a lot of laziness from the players.

On the other hand I have noticed a lot of creative use with other powers. Archer's Stairway seems to get used by my players in all kinds of ways.

Want to go up a wall? Use the stairway.
Want to avoid a pit? Use the stairway.
Need to get up high? Use the stairway.
Ravenous hords charging? Use the stairway.

In my party this is getting as much attention as Rope Use did in 2e.

Has anyone else found a power that seems to be that flexible?
 

Your problems in the above passage seemed to be based around general problems of pure class systems. IMO, it seems that you really aren't a fan of class systems and thus don't enjoy the benefits along with the disadvantages of more rigid class systems.

I'm perfectly happy with class based systems, but there is no real reason to make them less capable than they can be. 4e has a decent middle ground. Using different stat allocations, feats, build choices, weapons, and power selection, plus MCing if you need to, you can do a LOT. Power swap features are easy to integrate because the classes all have interchangeable powers, etc. It is a LOT more flexible than AD&D/OD&D/BECMI was because of that. As soon as you take that away you are right back to 2e level flexibility.

But 4e has it's own limitations that are annoying to some people... Like how my PHB 1 fighter is crap if he has to use a bow (though this was never the case in previous editions)... I guess I have the choice to use the bow, but is it a good choice when all my powers don't work with it and my abilities are sub-optimal for it. We no longer have that problem with the Slayer (though far from an expert archer he's at least feasible as an archer in a pinch)...

But the 4e fighter isn't actually crap with a bow. He's also no less crap with a bow than an AD&D fighter was. He can make a perfectly reasonable bow attack modified by DEX. His basic attack still works. The AD&D fighter had the same setup. Either one, sans a high dex, had a basic vanilla bow attack. Either one of them COULD in theory have a magic bow and it will do exactly as much for either one of them. Notice that at low levels both versions of fighter will do reasonably well with bow attacks. In either system at high levels making bow attacks becomes rather pointless unless you have a monster good magic bow. Fighters were NEVER envisaged as primarily ranged attackers. The differences are small and really almost insignificant there.

I guess what I am saying is that a class system by it's very nature will be limited, and I think the issue is really one of first accepting the benefits and diadvantages that come with a class system and then deciding what limitations best fit your style. As an example, I felt 4e tried to codify and restrict one's role in a way more narrow way than the past editions did and it felt stiffling and limiting to me. YMMV of course

Whatever level of limitations may or may not exist in 4e they are LESS than the limitations that exist in Essentials. In fact Essentials by itself is exceedingly limited. Characters do have utility powers and feats, which is a bit better than base level AD&D at least, but there are a LOT less character concepts you can cover, even on a class-by-class comparison basis with 4e. That is a step backwards.

I think it's the fault of presenting the powers and not presenting the improvising rules to the players in the PHB. I also think that the tactical nature of the game and the dependency on teamwork to survive tends to mean you are usually in a much better position using powers (especially as they are a known quantity)... than you are trying to do stuff with rules you don't know. I guess I think it is both a function of 4e's presentation and an emergent property of play that many players rely more on their powers than anything else... especially players who may not be the most tactically adept and thus are struggling with deciding what and how to do stuff with just their main options... let alone whatever else they can think up...without messing their team up.

I think we can also question what the DM is doing in terms of presentation. I know from my experience as a DM that how I present the options provided by the system to the players makes a huge difference. My players now ALWAYS look for ways to use terrain powers for instance. They also simply go right ahead and describe stunts they want to do. Sure, in the beginning they were figuring things out, and I was also figuring out the system, so there was a tendency to stick with the simplest approach. After a couple months though I introduced a bunch of added things into each encounter and encouraged the players to mess around. "You can see that the ballista is aimed in the general direction of the enemy and you could probably fire it." or "It looks like you could swing across the chasm on those vines."

There are other things that you have to consider too. MANY DMs in my experience with 4e set DCs FAR too high. They go on some theory that something would be insanely difficult for people in the real world and crank up the DC to the stratosphere. Then they justify it by saying "it should be risky to do dangerous things". Bunk. No sane player will stunt when the chance of success is 50/50 at best and the results of success are not much different from what they can attain without taking that risk. Failure consequences are also usually pretty dire for really cool stunts. Make sure that when the players use stunts they get a reward and not a mechanical punishment. Notice how the DCs were quickly errated way down in the DMG? I think that was the reason. They are a bit higher now and the range of DCs is better with the newest chart, but it still preserves the idea of heroes doing crazy stuff and usually pulling it off.

And see for me I feel very much like 4e classic is D&D made for people who never particulaly enjoyed playing D&D... which your posts above kinda, sorta support. I've seen people talk about many of the things 4e "fixed" that were purely subjective things and I think for many part of what gave D&D a D&D "feel".

IMO, Essentials is moving back towards a D&D made for people who enjoyed playing D&D with all it's tropes, idiosyncracies, etc. Do I like all of those things? No, but what I do like about the D&D genre far outweighs what I don't (and I can always houserule stuff in or out.). What I didn't want was the designers deciding that D&D should loose a bunch of things tied to it's history for me. I think many of these tropes give the fanbase a sense of commonality when discussing "D&D" but also tend to define what makes playing D&D different than say playing Runequest, Earthdawn, Dragon Age or Stormbringer. YMMV of course.

Well, I've played D&D since 1975, so I figure I must be enjoying something. IMHO the D&D feel is there in 4e. Honestly, for me at least, it didn't come from magic missile automagically hitting, nor any other single specific feature of any class. It comes from the meme, a party of sturdy adventurers striking into the unknown depths of the earth to seek treasure, glory, and death! I think 4e has a lot more focus on doing that well than 3.x ever did. I feel like 4e gives me the ability to run pretty much the type of adventures that we ran way back in the dim dark early days of OD&D. Sure, you roll a different die here and there and add things up a bit different, but it wasn't THAT which made it D&D.

RQ, Earthdawn, DA, and Stormbringer as examples ALL are designed with a specific world and mode of play in mind. You don't play Stormbringer in order to run kitchen sink fantasy. You run it to be the companion of the Eternal Champion, fight for the balance, and quest for Tanelorn. It isn't a very good system for doing other things really, as the mechanics are suited to recreating Moorcock's fiction specifically. RQ is a fun game but only really works in the context of Glorantha. You could extend and adapt those games to other settings and styles of fantasy, but D&D already does most of the other stuff fairly well for the most part. Heck, 4e will do a pretty decent job of being Stormbringer or RQ, but it also does a pretty darn good job of being itself. Pretty flexible really.
 

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