Are Giants Overpowered?

[dcollins]

I've had a recurring problem with how Giants have a vast overabundance of Hit Dice and hit points, compared to other creatures of the same size. They very much break the guidelines for monster design set down by Skip Williams in his article on the subject. (See here: www.superdan.net/dndmisc/monster_abnormal_hd.html )

But having poked the numbers recently, I think the Giant Challengge Ratings may be, similarly, too low for their abilities and Hit Dice (similar to too-low Dragon CRs). Running it through a computer simulator, they generally rank about the same power level as an NPC fighter of their CR + 4.

Example: Stone Giant, AC 25, hp 119, Atk greatclub +17/+12 (2d6+12), etc. He matches up most closely with a 12th-level NPC Fighter (per 3.0 DMG): AC 25, hp 94, Atk bastard sword +19/+14/+9 (1d10+8). The giant has the same AC, more hit points, similar attacks with better damage, plus reach. That would seem to indicate the giant should be CR 12, not the listed CR 8.

Any other experiences on this? Do other folks have a history of running Giants against PCs and the PCs having a significantly harder time than you expected according to CRs?

 

[Wormwood]

Any other experiences on this? Do other folks have a history of running Giants against PCs and the PCs having a significantly harder time than you expected according to CRs?

Quick anecdote:

I threw a single Fire Giant (+2 levels of Barbarian: CR12) against a party of three 12th level characters.

Near TPK (if not for Dimension Door it would have been total).

Nasty. Even I was a little taken aback.

 

[Scion]

Of course a party member would have much better stats, way more money for gear, and have better feat choices. (for the stats, 4d6 drop the low results in a much higher average point buy value, money for pc's is around 3x as much as for npc's, and the fighter feats picked out just plain suck vs the giant anyway, they could have been much better even for general purpose use).

If all of that was factored into the computer simulation somehow then cool

And as far as the fire giant battle goes.. well, with 2 levels of barb I would expect it to be much nastier, more than +2 CR would really account for, just because of how the guy is made.. but then his ac would have dropped by quite a bit (probably not wearing the heavy armor as usual, -2 from rageing). With an AC < 20 his hp would have gone away very rapidly

Along with that, it was only 3 12th level guys, at least one of which was a caster (who apparently didnt have a couple somethings to strike against a will save).


I have had experience with hill giants in a few different battles, they have not seemed overpowered for their cr at all just yet. With just over 100 hp and an ac of 20 a concentrated attack from the party can take one of them out before it really even gets to do much.

 

[dcollins]

Of course a party member would have much better stats, way more money for gear, and have better feat choices. (for the stats, 4d6 drop the low results in a much higher average point buy value, money for pc's is around 3x as much as for npc's, and the fighter feats picked out just plain suck vs the giant anyway, they could have been much better even for general purpose use).

(sigh) The point is not that a PC could defeat a giant. The point is that if a 12th-level NPC Fighter counts as CR 12, then a Stone Giant that can beat such an NPC fighter should also count as CR 12.

Please, Scion, don't make this another thread about how the PCs in your campaign world can destroy anything without breaking a sweat. Please.

 

[Someone]

In my experience, no, unless they catch you totally unprepared and without a single good spell. My players (almost newbies to the D&D system) had a lot of problems with them in an adventure that had lots of giants util they learned to use Fly, Grease, Displacement and Improved Invisibility against them.

 

[the Jester]

Giants have a glass jaw: the poor will save.

 

[Gort]

Giants are kinda like vermin (EG the colossal monstrous scorpion) and animals in that they have poor ACs, large sizes, and tons of attack and hitpoints.

So, to defeat them, you have to do something other than just go toe-to-toe with them...

Personally, though, pretty much any monster of CR X will defeat a level X fighter. I think there's something wrong with the idea that a level X character is CR X.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IME giants get weak around CR 9. In 3.5 they did buff up the Will saves of some giants, but it's not enough. (Look at the Will save of the frost giant jarl. He has Iron Will and divine grace, and it's still quite weak.)

At around that level a wizard has multiple 4th-level spells, including greater invisibility (so he doesn't get hit by a flaming rock) and confusion (for ... many reasons) and any number of other nasty Will save spells. I used confusion first because it has a decent area of effect. A druid by that level can have Wild Casting (or whatever the feat is called) plus spike stones.

Now, if the DM is not using a random encounter, a giant with three levels of cleric with the calm emotions and remove paralysis spells can really mess around with PC tactics (don't forget the potions of see invisibility) but giving class levels to the giants boosts the EL of the encounter.

 

[Scion]

The point is not that a PC could defeat a giant. The point is that if a 12th-level NPC Fighter counts as CR 12, then a Stone Giant that can beat such an NPC fighter should also count as CR 12.

I brought up the pc's power level because a 12 level pc is also CR 12, however a 12th level pc fighter should be able to kill off the 12th level npc fighter nearly every time as well.

Pointing out to you that the problem is more likely to be the npc fighter than the giant is a valid way to go. It may very well be that you are focusing on the wrong problem.

Please, Scion, don't make this another thread about how the PCs in your campaign world can destroy anything without breaking a sweat.

Please get off of your high horse dcollins, your hostile attitude is not needed nor warrented.

My point is very valid, and the history I gave is exactly what you asked for.

Also, CR's are balanced against a whole party. A party of the typical 4 characters will likely have no problems against the giant. Between a couple of will save spells, or something similar, they should be able to take him down easy.

If you ask for help and histories, and you are given both, dont complain about it.

 

[Endur]

The NPC CR formula of 1 level = 1 CR is broken. I'm not sure what the right CR should be for an NPC of level X, but it should be something less.

Giants are dangerous. However, they have serious weakness to magic. Likewise, your average NPC fighter also has a serious weakness to magic and undead have an aversion to clerics.