Are Giants Overpowered?

[Aaron2]

There are certain categories of monsters that particularly do this. I've made a comprehensive analysis in the 3.0 rules in the past on my website here: www.superdan.net/dndmisc/monster_hit_dice.html and here: www.superdan.net/dndmisc/monster_abnormal_hd.html

Giants are the #1 offender, which is why I bring them up. They're followed by certain Constructs and Outsiders. Other types are generally within the ballpark of that article.

I've noticed that the 3.5 monster manual no longer lists maximum hit die by size (at least those over tiny).


Aaron

 

[dcollins]

I've noticed that the 3.5 monster manual no longer lists maximum hit die by size (at least those over tiny).

Neither did 3.0. This material was from an external Williams article, as referenced above.

 

[Scion]

Of course, that thread featured (1) fighting the giants one at a time in sequence, (2) the druid using up all his top-level and second-top-level spells to accomplish this, and (3) a lot of questions about whether AOOs, giant Power Attack, and numbers in general were adjudicated properly.

True enough, but then it was a 5th level group (more or less) vs an ECL 9 and one of the combatants apparently did almost nothing

While there were a lot of questions no one there doubted that the party could take them out pretty handily, and even then all they did was rush in and play to the giants strengths, while still beating them.

Even with the questions, that is pretty good evidence.

 

[Destil]

Example: Stone Giant, AC 25, hp 119, Atk greatclub +17/+12 (2d6+12), etc. He matches up most closely with a 12th-level NPC Fighter (per 3.0 DMG): AC 25, hp 94, Atk bastard sword +19/+14/+9 (1d10+8). The giant has the same AC, more hit points, similar attacks with better damage, plus reach. That would seem to indicate the giant should be CR 12, not the listed CR 8.

Any other experiences on this? Do other folks have a history of running Giants against PCs and the PCs having a significantly harder time than you expected according to CRs?

Fighter feats: Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave, Point Blank Shot, Improved Crit (Bastard Sword), Great Cleave, Dodge, Precise Shot (and weapon focus/spec, already figured into damage/to hit bonus).
Gaint: Combat Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Percise Shot, Power Attack

Fighter Saves: +12 Fort +7 Ref +7 Will
Giant Saves: +13 Fort +6 Ref +4 Will

Fighter Ranged Attack: +16/+11/+6 (1d8+6, 120' Range)
Giant Ranged Attack: +12/+7 (2d8+2, 10' Range)

Fighter Items: Potion of CMW, Potion of Endurance + items already figured into combat stats
Giant Items: CR8 Standard Treasure (3400 GP)
Example: Potion of CMW, Potion of Endurance, +1 Huge Greatclub (Making melee attack +18/+13 (2d6+13)

It looks like the main difference is the ranged attack. Outside of 60' the giant's just a pin cushion. The Fighter's about 1/2 way into his first range incriment for his bow at that range, and he has 9 1/2 more to go. Also the fighter has a critical threat range of 16-20 once you get into melee. And if it's a lone NPC fighter there's no reason not to replace Percise Shot with Rapid Shot, making his ranged attack even more dangerous...

 

[dcollins]

Correction: The Stone Giant actually has a longer range increment than the fighter -- 180 feet. Something that I would also put on the docket to tone down, actually.

Less important, but I think the fighter's melee crit range is 17-20. That was accounted for in the melee simulation run at the start of the thread.

 

[dcollins]

Okay, so I just ran my computer simulation on a ranged fight between a Stone Giant and an NPC fighter. Assume a distance of 400 feet (maximum encounter distance per the DMG), so 2 range increments for the Giant and 3 for the Fighter.

This results in being even more in favor of the Giant! This simulation requires a 13th-level NPC Fighter to create an even match-up with the giant. This would be the same even if the fighter was flying, of course. (So only something as powerful as improved invisibility would really make a difference.)

 

[Destil]

Correction: The Stone Giant actually has a longer range increment than the fighter -- 180 feet. Something that I would also put on the docket to tone down, actually.

Less important, but I think the fighter's melee crit range is 17-20. That was accounted for in the melee simulation run at the start of the thread.

Bah, glanced over the enrty and couldn't find that, so I assumed the standard 10' for thrown weapons...

 

[Darklone]

Giants rock throwing is at the beginning of the giants entry...

Giants are susceptible to invis, will saves and sneak attacks. Anything else should only result in dead PCs... or summon natures ally threads.

 

[Scion]

STONE GIANT
Large Giant (Earth)
HD: 14d8+56 (119 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30' in hide armor (6 squares); base speed 40'
AC: 25 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +11 natural, +3 hide), touch 11, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+22
Attack: Greatclub +17 melee (2d8+12) or slam +17 melee (1d4+8) or rock +11 ranged (2d8+12)
Full Attack: Greatclub +17/+12 melee (2d8+12) or 2 slams +17 melee (1d4+8) or rock +11 ranged (2d8+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, rock catching
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +6, Will +7
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11
Skills: Climb +11, Hide +6*, Jump +11, Spot +12
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot


Fighter 10
Medium Human
HD: 10d10+20 (79.5 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30'
AC: 20 (10 + 4 dex + 6 chain shirt)
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+12
Attack: Bow +17 d8+5
Full Attack: Bow +17/+12 (rapid shot +15/+15/+10)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Saves: F +9 R +7 W +7
Abilities: Str 14 Dex 16 (18) Con 14 Wis 12 Int 10 Cha 8
Skills: 39 skill points
Feats: (6 bonus, 1 human, 4 any) weapon focus (bow), greater weapon focus (bow), point blank shot, far shot, weapon specialization (bow), improved critical (bow), iron will, manyshot, precise shot, rapid shot, +some other feat

Items: Mighty (+2) Composite long bow +1, gloves of dex +2, adamantine chain shirt +2

Giant attacks at ranged (beyond first range increment, between 180' and 360')

+8 to hit, 2d8+12 (21) damage, vs fighters ac 20
45% chance to hit, 9.45 damage (-1 adamantine = 8.45)
(10.395 after factoring in crits, so a total of 9.395 after everything)

Fighter attacks (at range, beyond first range increment, between 165' and 330')

+13/+13/+8 to hit, d8+5 (9.5) damage vs giants ac 25
45%/45%/20%, 10.45
(+1.2825, +1.2825, +.57 = 13.585)

So, the giant at 9.395 damage per round it takes him 8.46 rounds to take out the fighter.

The fighter deals 13.585 per round taking him 8.76 rounds to take out the giant.

Sounds pretty even to me, basically whoever goes first, and the fighter has a better chance of doing so.

And this is useing the fighter (ew), with npc wealth (actually much less if I remembered the number correctly, and I choose very generic stuff), useing the standard array (point buy 25, which is much weaker than rolling 4d6 most of the time), and useing no other tactics than just shoot shoot shoot.

Along with my only having used the 10th level fighter (for the npc -2 = CR).

Increaseing his level by 2 would make him hit much more often, be hit much less often, and hit harder with every shot.

Vs a whole party of pc's? Looks like it could very easily be childs play. (better equipment, more actions, more options, etc.)

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Giants can slug it out in melee combat against nearly any group of PCs of their CR. They can take the damage and dish it out very well. But a party of 4 PCs in melee against a giant of their CR they can proably win.

Unfortunaley (for the giant) they don't fly have only half decent ranged attacks (not awseomly powerful like they are in melee) and have ty will saves. If you can avoid melee with a giant or cast something like hold monster or tashas hideous laughter on them you'll massacre the giants.

Dragons though IMO are generally 2 points lower in CR than they should be.