Pathfinder 1E Are giants too strong?

Wiseblood

Adventurer
Do you think giants' strength scores are too high? For example a fog giant has a strength score of 35 it is a huge giant. If you reduce the giant by two size categories it's strength drops by 4 leaving a rather robust 31 on a medium sized creature. Are they simply inflated to make them threatening for higher level characters. Should giants be retooled to face lower level heroes? Does this just reflect changes that have occurred when the level range for all characters is 1-20 or higher? Monsters must be scattered, sometimes rather thinly, across all these levels.
 

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brvheart

Explorer
Giants are defined by subtype as being at least size large. They are all sorts off CRs so I don't see the issue. Ogres are only a CR 3.
 

Libertad

Hero
Not really. Giants in Pathfinder are meant to be melee machines, and aside from this they're not very versatile in comparison to other monsters of their CR.

For comparison, a Glabrezu is CR 13 and 31 Strength, but it has a wider assortment of spell-like abilities, energy and magical resistance, and they can teleport.

An Adult Red Dragon is CR 14 and 31 Strength, but can fly and cast some spells.

The Giants can keep their high Strength, it's all they've got.
 



Considering it was built for 3.5, it would be -8 STR per size category, making it 19 STR at size Medium. I don't think Pathfinder re-specced the giants when they took over.
 
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Stormonu

Legend
Yes, they're too high.

The Strength scores are more built around their carrying capacity and the need to have them deal inflated damage to keep up with PC's. It also has the unfortunate side effect of granting ridiculous "to hit" bonuses. If carrying capacity scaled better for larger-than-human creatures and there wasn't a damage arms race, giants might have Strength values somewhere back around those of 1E or 2E, probably around 20.
 

brvheart

Explorer
Again, an ogre or a hill giant only has a str of 21. About all that giants have is strength. They go down pretty fast in combat.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Giants are always problematic for an RPG. The physics of a humanoid giant don't really work IRL. But if you were to assume that a 24' tall creature weighing say 10 tons had mobility similar to a human, even a weak human for his size, the massive cludgel such a creature would carry would turn any person it hit to jello. So typically RPGs find ways to scale down the damage giants do without scaling down their strength. D20 is actually doing this subtly by giving the huge giant 16 times the normal carrying capacity for a given strength. That's a fudge factor within the rules that takes the giants non-linear increase in strength and linearizes it to ensure the scale of the damage is closer to normal.

So in a sense, giants aren't strong enough.

Giant strengths are chosen in 3.X in order to closely match the strength bonus of the original 1e giants using the new rules. For example, Frost Giants in 1e had a 21 Str, good for a +9 bonus to damage. Frost Giants in 3e therefore have a 29 strength, which is again good for a +9 bonus to damage. Interestingly, in 1e damage scaled up with strength, but the ability to hit didn't scale as fast as damage, so the 1e Frost Giant gained but a +4 to hit, while the 3e Frost Giant gains the full +9.

One thing I've been considering lately for making giants more viable as a low level opponent is to eliminate their racial HD and just give them levels. Under my rules that give bonus hit points based on size class, I know longer need nearly as much HD to fluff up hit points for large creatures. A Frost Giant 2nd level fighter would for example have an average of 37 hit points even without his racial HD. I haven't made the leap yet, but one nice feature of this is that giants would actually get more viable as both low level and high level opponent's, since giant HD aren't particularly CR efficient. Instead of facing 14HD giants, you'd be facing giant 14th level fighters or 14th level barbarians who happen to be giants.

Still not certain that this a good way to go, but it has its appeal.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Not really. Giants in Pathfinder are meant to be melee machines, and aside from this they're not very versatile in comparison to other monsters of their CR.

They certainly are and that's part of the problem. There's nothing wrong with them being a powerful melee combatant. But when 3e started giving monsters bonuses to hit based on their stats, the system generated a very powerful melee combatant whose threat level lobbing rocks dropped off significantly compared to his 1e/2e counterparts whose ability to hit in melee or at range was dependent on pretty much just hit dice. The system may work pretty much seamlessly when comparing PCs and NPCs, but it probably makes the giants too nasty up close but not nasty enough at a distance.
 

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