Are knowledge skills worth it?

[satori01]

The funny thing about Knowledge(local), is if you live in a big city, you realize that as a skill it can come quite in handy.

In real life I live in Los Angeles, and as most Angelenos can tell you knowing the quickest route, or best restaurant of X type, or what time of day a street or freeway has the worst traffic can make a huge impact. Suddenly I realized that in game terms that all people that move to a big city and get acclimated start acquiring knowledge(local).

Thus,I have had players use their knowledge (local) skill to take a side alley and try to cut off a fleeing oponent, or to know on the fly while in disguise as a tanner, where the best bakery in the Guild District is, so on and so forth.

Another thing I can suggest is for players to use knowledge ranks with their DM. If you tell your DM "Hey I have 8 ranks in knowledge History cant I know anything about x" and keep on trying to use the skill your DM will either start accomadating you or eventually tell you to redistribute your skill points.

Luckily my players like knowledge skills, it has allowed me to run an adventure where the whole goal was to return themselves to normal from being out of phase,(ethereal in essences), most of the adventure was them making various skill checks, assimiliting the information, and then trying to solve the problem. It was a blast.

 

[hero4hire]

Recently I started a new campaign with several new players. I informed them straight off that Knowledge skills will be extremely useful. Only my veteran player took the hint and took Education for his Hexblade. Later though the rest hopped on board with Able Learner and Ancestral Knowledge.

 

[TerraDave]

Profession soldier could cover tactics, supply lines, recruiting & the like - character flavor more than typical game use

Profession Engineer - Understanding design, basic physics - Again, not used often in games, but a character can use it instead of knowledge

You could make many specific knowledges using profession/craft, but these would probably see less game play.

One implication of this is that you are shifting these from being Int based to Wis based, and I think in each of your examples it doesn't really fit (in fact, if you wanted to give examples of "smart" but not necassarily "wise" proffesionals, I couldn't think of two better ones)...it also doesn't solve the problem, you still have specific skills for each of these areas.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

... you could spend 20 skill points across 5 knowledge skills and still have low knowledge checks and be completely ignorant on many general topics.

Not true. Let's say you have a +1 Int modifier. That makes your checks for each of the 5 knowledge skills +5. And that doesn't even take into account possible synergy or item bonuses. Considering that general/basic information about any given topic can be had with a DC 10 Knowledge check, 75% of the time you'll have the answer. Plus, you'll have the answer to such questions in 5 different fields! That's nowhere near "completely ignorant". Furthermore, I find it's often wizard-type characters with high Int mods that take a broad range of skills, allowing them to get a decent check (+5 with an 18 Int) for only 1 rank.

Part of your problem may be DMs setting the DCs too high; especially if the P doesn't have a lot of ranks in the applicable Knowledge skills. Knowledge skills are one of those things in D&D that are greatly affected by how the DM handles them. If your DM isn't impressed with Knowledge skills, you likely won't get very good mileage out of them.

On the flipside, it's often players who don't use Knowledge skills enough and then only remember the failures when they really needed it. If you have ranks in Knowledge, use 'em! Ask questions, lot's of 'em! It's easier to piece together a puzzle than hope to find a completed one. In addition, DMs are often more willing to divulge little clues along the way rather than the complete answer all in one shot.

Knowledge skills are as good as you make them.

 

[KnowTheToe]

I would disagree that Wis would not be an equal mark to intel for these abilities. Being smarter often does not make one better at a profession. Still, craft skills are in everyones class skill lists, knowledges are only in a few. But, in the end you may be right, it only changes the focus, but not the result.

I think the profession option gives an alternate route for players to use. Again, this would allow the PC to specifically link his knowledge to a certain part of his past experience. Lets say a soldier served in the military for 20 years. Each lvl he put a rank in profession soldier to reflect his training and knowledge of working in an organized unit. This character could use this ability, which more accurately fits the PCs concepts, to make checks on understanding logistics, troop movement, weapons training, tactics, etc. The PC may convince the DM that it also gives him knowledge geography in the border area he was staioned for 10 years. He may convince the DM that it gives him knowledge about monsters that live in that area. IMO, this style better fits specific character history and RPing needs. It puts the power back into the minds and creativity of the player & GM and not just a DC check on a specific cross class knowledge skill.

On the other hand, you want a character who has diverse knowledge. He grew up in a wealthy family in a large city. He had access to formal education. Knowledge Lore and the like would be a better fit. Both work inside the game mechanics, but give a lot more feel to the characters and cutting the knowledge skills down to 4-5, makes each one of those more useful.

 

[Seeten]

The PC I play currently(5 Wiz 6 Pale Master) has: Knowledge Arcana 11, Knowledge History 5, Knowledge Geography 3, Knowledge Necrology 11, Knowledge Thanatology 8.

Wow, thats a lot of skill points. But, what else can a Wizard spend em on?

 

[Whimsical]

One of my DMs has a richly detailed campaign world with well-realized NPCs and organizations, distinctive cultures, and a many-layered history. He is also a prankster at heart and loves secrets. Which means that socially interacting in his world is a series of social traps that are set to have us stumble into trouble, upset NPCs, or at least have us humliate ourselves. I run a social bard/rogue in his game and I use my maxed out Know(local) check constantly. I'm always checking to identify who we are talking with, their reputation, how certain acts are regarded culturally or legaly, checking for loopholes in deals that we are about to arrange, other NPCs we would upset if we go along our course of action, significant days of the year for this culture (and what happens if we don't participate,) likey buyers and sellers of certain items (which grants a bonus to my diplomacy check when making a deal, or allows us to make a deal in the first place,) recent history within the last few years or even months. This is information that would not normally be volunteered by the DM. Generally we are treated like mushrooms: kept in the dark and fed bull[biscuits]. Every time I happen to ask the right question and make the know(local) check, I scoop off some of those bull biscuts off of the party. Although with all of my efforts I know that I have been somewhat helpful, the nature of the DM's game is that we still get surprised by social *gotchas!* and in general I feel like we are that car in the car commercial that is just spinning around in circles through an icy parking lot. We are power that we are not able to engage. What's our AC vs. cutting remark? What's our save vs. backhanded insult?

Although this DM does what he does to a frustrating degree, in moderation it is a good way to make the local knowledge skill relevant and valuable in a game. Don't just give away facts, have the PCs dig it out of their own head. Set social situations up so that the obvious way to deal with it is not the right way. Have an NPC that likes to work loopholes in deals they make with the party. Or an NPC that is very difficult to deal with, but with a little known reason why, and an even littler known way of placating him. Set up situations where the PCs could accidently break a social taboo. And then set it up so that knowledgable PCs could evade it.

 

[just__al]

I really like the Knowledge skills, myself. Although I don't like when the GM makes up new ones. "... Oh, that's Knowledge (Old Religion). Oh, that's Knowledge (Warfare)."

I don't make up new knowledge skills, but if a player wanted to take an obscure knowledge skill I'd let them and let the DC's for vaguely related questions be higher and directly related questions be lower.

But I'd never force or require an obscure knowlege check, or if I did, the players would probably already know the local expert.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I consider every non-rules related question a player asks in terms of Knowledge skills.

1. Is it common knowledge? If yes, I just answer.
2. Is it specific knowledge? If yes, what Knowledge skill does it best fit?

Then I ask for that kind of Knowledge check. Sometimes I'll offer two different Knowledge skills. Sometimes a player will try to suggest a Knowledge skill they have, which they believe would be related to the one(s) I asked for. If I agree it's related, I'll let them use that at a -2 penalty.

It's been my experience that players tend to ask a lot of questions when put into new situations. If it's safe to climb a certain cliff. If there's a way to gain speed over a fleeing boat. If simply destroying a lever will disable a machine or just keep one from being able to shut it off. etc. etc.

I ask for Knowledge checks a lot. The PCs' ranks in the various areas determine how blindly (or astutely) they enter into any situation.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

http://www.giantitp.com/Func0019.html

Yup, GiantITP has more than just OotS! The World Creation articles are good, too.

Honestly, for Knowledge skills, I've been tending to just give out info if the roll looks high. Also, I give one or two free ranks out every once in a while.