Are knowledge skills worth it?
- Thread starter KnowTheToe
- Start date
Li Shenron
Legend
KnowTheToe said:
Bad sentence
Why oh why do you have to "consistently hit DC 15"? I agree that DC 15 is for fairly common knowledge, not rare or obscure one, but still a 1st level character with a net +4 has a 50% chance to succeed each time he makes a check. Considering that the skill is intended as a "hint-provider", a 50% chance in not bad at all for such a 1st-level character (and +4 is far from a max-out). This sort of skills isn't to be thought like jump or concentration or disable device, where a failure really has a penalty, but IMHO it's a "positive" skill that gives you something more rather than avoiding something bad.You are right that these skills can be completely unuseful if the DM forgets about them and never make you roll. This is true for other skills as well (a DM can quite easily render climb, swim, open lock, diplomacy, etc. useless), but it's more common for Knowledge. If you feel like they're underused, tell your DM that he's not using them enough.
We have lots of Knowledge rolls every session, although they're almost always Arcana, Religion and Local. Only sometimes we use the others, and this is in fact because many think they're too limited (Nobility, Geography) and so they don't take ranks. Probably with some effort you can make these useful as well if you expand what they cover. E.g. Geography doesn't have to cover only info about specific locations of the continent, but also could be used to:
- find generic locations nearby, such as the nearest cave where to rest or pool where to get water
- facilitate and speed-up travel by knowledge of the best routes
- help finding a specific flora or fauna*
- answer questions about races and cultures**
- know which kind of power rules over a country, and possibly who is in charge**
*may overlap with Nature: Geography would let you know that Belladonna grows in Neverwinter Woods, Nature would let you know that Belladonna grows in temperate forest and NWW is one of them
**may overlap with Local, but less specific and more encompassing
I just mentioned Geography because I've noticed in the past that very many players tend to think geography as knowledge about the names of mountains, lakes, rivers and at best where are the towns, but of course it's much more than that!
KnowTheToe
First Post
I agree that knowledge skills are very important, but I find that with all of the knowledge skills and the narrow focuses they cover it is difficult to create a sage style character or a character with a well rounded education. I spend a lot of points on knowledge because they usually fit my character concepts. When I do, I lose the ability to make spot, listen, climb, blalance, bluff, sense motive, etc (higly usable skills).
If you consider a standard 25 point buy character, any class outside of Wizard, probably has an intel score of 14 or less. You may not use the 25 PB, but when discussing rules, this is the balance number that was used for characters. Even though a person may use 70% of their skill points toward formal learning, they are still very ignorant on many facets of life. There is no synergy between knowledges. There are 10 knowledge skills and none of them are general in nature. I think maybe a synergy bonus of +1 to all knowledge checks for every 5 points spent in knowledge skills would help greatly and maybe even solve the problem.
I like what knowledge represents in the game, I just think the skills are too specific. I like the idea above about the Lore Skill, it could cover History, local, & nobility. Knowledge Religion, Arcana and nature are all tied to specific classes and have a variety applicable uses, so I would leave them. I like dungeoneering, but would broaden it to cover more monster types. Using a system like PC's where a high knowledge roll would give them more specific info on the monster they faced. Knowledge Geography I would keep, but also add locations. Knowing where merchants who sell a certain type of item reside, weather patterns etc. Engineering/ architecture and Planes are both things few people would know about, so those could remain as they are. I may even add a knowledge for tactics/logic. This could be used in situation where the PCs need to create battleplans, predict enemy or alliances troop movements, goals, formation etc. It could also be used to give the PCs a last ditch effort to overcome logic puzzles, riddles and things like that they they could not RP through.
If you consider a standard 25 point buy character, any class outside of Wizard, probably has an intel score of 14 or less. You may not use the 25 PB, but when discussing rules, this is the balance number that was used for characters. Even though a person may use 70% of their skill points toward formal learning, they are still very ignorant on many facets of life. There is no synergy between knowledges. There are 10 knowledge skills and none of them are general in nature. I think maybe a synergy bonus of +1 to all knowledge checks for every 5 points spent in knowledge skills would help greatly and maybe even solve the problem.
I like what knowledge represents in the game, I just think the skills are too specific. I like the idea above about the Lore Skill, it could cover History, local, & nobility. Knowledge Religion, Arcana and nature are all tied to specific classes and have a variety applicable uses, so I would leave them. I like dungeoneering, but would broaden it to cover more monster types. Using a system like PC's where a high knowledge roll would give them more specific info on the monster they faced. Knowledge Geography I would keep, but also add locations. Knowing where merchants who sell a certain type of item reside, weather patterns etc. Engineering/ architecture and Planes are both things few people would know about, so those could remain as they are. I may even add a knowledge for tactics/logic. This could be used in situation where the PCs need to create battleplans, predict enemy or alliances troop movements, goals, formation etc. It could also be used to give the PCs a last ditch effort to overcome logic puzzles, riddles and things like that they they could not RP through.
HalWhitewyrm
First Post
I LOVE Knowledge skills; they're right up there with Feats and PrCs as my favorite elements of the 3.0/3.5 rules of the game. Unfortunately, they do tend to get the shaft by most players I know, including my own. Here's a little system I devised to help foster Knowledge skills in my games.
IMO, the biggest problem faced by Knowledge skills is that they share a pool of skill points with other "more useful" skills like Hide, Listen, Spot, etc. So, I fixed that in the following manner:
1- First of all, everyone has access to a Knowledge skill as class skill. If the class doesn't have Knowledge skills in its class skill list, I allow the player to choose any one of his/her choice (seen a Fighter with Knowledge (Arcana)?).
2- After everyone has spent their skill points, they get "Knowledge Points" equal to their Int score. These can only be spent on Knowledge skills.
3- At every level raise, they get their usual skill point allotment depending on the class, and then they get "Knowledge Points" equal to their Int modifier (if positive, min. 1 KP) that can only be spent on Knowledge skills.
4- KPs are not retroactive if there is an increase in Int.
So far it has worked wonders, and has really enlivened the campaign with the PCs choosing your usual Knowledge skills (Arcana, Religion, Nature, etc.), but also venturing into more specific/esoteric topics (I have a PC with Knowledge [Cooking]!). I try my best to have Knowledge skills play a part of the game, either by direct skill checks, or by indirect knowledge the PCs have that the players don't.
One suggestion from above I liked was making Bardic Knowledge a specialized Knowledge skill, ie. Knowledge (Lore), and allowing it to be affected by synergies from other Knowledge skills. I'll have to playtest to see if I allow it to be raised with skill points/KPs or not.
Hope this helps.
IMO, the biggest problem faced by Knowledge skills is that they share a pool of skill points with other "more useful" skills like Hide, Listen, Spot, etc. So, I fixed that in the following manner:
1- First of all, everyone has access to a Knowledge skill as class skill. If the class doesn't have Knowledge skills in its class skill list, I allow the player to choose any one of his/her choice (seen a Fighter with Knowledge (Arcana)?).
2- After everyone has spent their skill points, they get "Knowledge Points" equal to their Int score. These can only be spent on Knowledge skills.
3- At every level raise, they get their usual skill point allotment depending on the class, and then they get "Knowledge Points" equal to their Int modifier (if positive, min. 1 KP) that can only be spent on Knowledge skills.
4- KPs are not retroactive if there is an increase in Int.
So far it has worked wonders, and has really enlivened the campaign with the PCs choosing your usual Knowledge skills (Arcana, Religion, Nature, etc.), but also venturing into more specific/esoteric topics (I have a PC with Knowledge [Cooking]!). I try my best to have Knowledge skills play a part of the game, either by direct skill checks, or by indirect knowledge the PCs have that the players don't.
One suggestion from above I liked was making Bardic Knowledge a specialized Knowledge skill, ie. Knowledge (Lore), and allowing it to be affected by synergies from other Knowledge skills. I'll have to playtest to see if I allow it to be raised with skill points/KPs or not.
Hope this helps.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I find it difficult to make Knowledge skills useful in my campaign. Events are pretty fast-paced, and the only skill that has come up frequently is Knowledge (streetwise/local).
I don't see how to make them relevant to the story without making everything known too fast.
PirateCat, what sort of info did you give out about the planes?
I don't see how to make them relevant to the story without making everything known too fast.
PirateCat, what sort of info did you give out about the planes?
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Inconsequenti-AL
Breaks Games
I think knowledge skills are rather like social skills. How useful they are is really down to the type of game the DM likes to run.
I'm also in the camp of setting a scale of DCs for knowledge skills. Gererally in a cumulative fashion. I'll often allow different skills to be used for the same piece of knowledge, often with different DCs.
For example: Both Knowledge(Nobility) and Knowledge(History) will be able to tell you the history of a given noble family... Although (Nobility) will be better for the family history, (History) will be better for any major events they were involved in.
This really came from our group playing loads of Shadowrun before DnD - where info gathering is really vital. The group is used to doing it and just carried the habit over.
I'm also in the camp of setting a scale of DCs for knowledge skills. Gererally in a cumulative fashion. I'll often allow different skills to be used for the same piece of knowledge, often with different DCs.
For example: Both Knowledge(Nobility) and Knowledge(History) will be able to tell you the history of a given noble family... Although (Nobility) will be better for the family history, (History) will be better for any major events they were involved in.
This really came from our group playing loads of Shadowrun before DnD - where info gathering is really vital. The group is used to doing it and just carried the habit over.
Arnwyn
First Post
Yeah, chalk me up as another who agrees with this. Just as Crothian does, there are multiple Knowledge check opportunities in each and every one of my sessions. My players certainly take ranks in Knowledge skills.Crothian said:
I might have believed this if I didn't see my own players have their PCs consistently make certain skill checks in the high 20's with 4th level characters.KnowTheToe said:
Everyone makes decisions on how to spend their points...
Voadam
Legend
I don't have many skill rolls in my game. Characters with high skills will know more than characters with low skills versus no skill.
But I don't roll, I just decide what seems appropriate for the character to know based on PC characterization, character history, and a glance at the numbers. Characterization, characte history and obscureness of information are more important than ranks to me though. And my PCs are not shy about asking knowledgeable NPCs for information on stuff they don't know or are unfamiliar with.
For instance, one PC IMC plays a dwarven cleric of a knowledge and wisdom god who has the metal domain and grew up in a smithing clan. They came across an ancient metal blade in an old temple. I have no idea what knowledge skill is appropriate here to identify the metal (history? nature lore? weaponsmithing?) or what DC would be appropriate for IDing the metal. But I felt it was appropriate for his character to know about weapon metals so I gave him the information about arsenic bronze that I dredged up on google. None of the other party members would have had a clue, which is fine, it would have just been a minor mystery for them to possibly follow up on later.
My group knows that this is pretty much how I run skills so they are fine with it.
But I don't roll, I just decide what seems appropriate for the character to know based on PC characterization, character history, and a glance at the numbers. Characterization, characte history and obscureness of information are more important than ranks to me though. And my PCs are not shy about asking knowledgeable NPCs for information on stuff they don't know or are unfamiliar with.
For instance, one PC IMC plays a dwarven cleric of a knowledge and wisdom god who has the metal domain and grew up in a smithing clan. They came across an ancient metal blade in an old temple. I have no idea what knowledge skill is appropriate here to identify the metal (history? nature lore? weaponsmithing?) or what DC would be appropriate for IDing the metal. But I felt it was appropriate for his character to know about weapon metals so I gave him the information about arsenic bronze that I dredged up on google. None of the other party members would have had a clue, which is fine, it would have just been a minor mystery for them to possibly follow up on later.
My group knows that this is pretty much how I run skills so they are fine with it.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
I am also in the "they are really usefull as is" camp though I may be a little generous in interpreting their scope...in any case spot, listen, search, and--depending on the player--spellcraft, bluff and move silently and hide remain the most used skills, but the knowledge skills are in the 2nd tier, and above things like ride, jump, or open locks
I think the Knowledge skills are useful enough, if applied, and generally general enough... I think that's the lack of skill points does make for ignorant, incompetent PCs, however. There are lots of ways to fix this, though.
I like skillful, competent PCs, myself, so I allow all characters their full skill points, as well as (4 + INT Bonus) Racial Background Skills/15 years of age, x4 at first level. Huamns get +!, and Half-Elves/Half-Orcs get +1/30 years. While Dwarves & Elves seem to clean up, at first, the Huamns and Half-Humans really do... Anyway, these points can ONLY be spent on Racial Background Skills, which always include some Knowledge skills, Crafts, Professions, and Performance styles.
After CharGen, all classes get +1 Rank/level in all of their class skills. This means that, once a skill has been maxed out, that it will remain maxed out, without needing to keep further track of it... It also means that all classes have all the appropriate Knowledge skills, as well as AT LEAST one Craft and Profession/level (except for the poor Fighter)!
In addition, five Ranks in Knowledge (History) gives you a +2 Synergy Bonus to Bardic Knowledge. I allow this to apply to ALL PCs, whether or not they have Bardic Knowledge. ANY Bard will always be better than them, in this, but if there isn't one in the party, the knowledgable PC can at least try, with a +2 bonus, where no one else can.
Also, Rangers with an appropriate Favored Enemy are always treated as being skilled in the appropriate Knowledge skill, even though it may be Cross-Class... For instance, a Ranger with Favored Enemy: Orcs at +2 is treated as unskilled in Knowledge (Local), except where it applies to Orcs, then he is treated as skilled, and gets +2 on the roll. The same with Knowledge of Orcish society, etc. Likewise, a Ranger with Favored Enemy: Humanoids (Evil). A Ranger with FE: Dragons is treated as unskilled in Knowledge (Arcana) for purposes of recognizing magical goodies, but as skilled (with his FE Bonus) for anything having to do with Dragons.
Also, I would add Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) and Knowledge (History) to the Fighter's skills. When the Captain orders the men to the merlons, or to the murder holes, they need to know where to go... Also, Knowledge (Engineering) should allow Fighters to operate the Siege Engines, using THAT skill, instead of BAB to hit. Knowledge (History) mentions that it covers ancient battles, and therefore covers the knowledge of both Strategy and Tactics that so many DMs seem to want to add... Besides, Knowledge (History) eventually gives that +2 Synergy Bonus to Bardic Knowledge, and many old Fighters historically became Bards, so this seems to fit, to me...
Knowledge (Engineering) covers a lot more ground, in my games than it seems to, in many... Any time that a PC wants something new invented, they will either need this skill, or money to hire someone with it, to draft their new plans. New devices made without it may have certain... "oddities"..., and not operate quite as expected...
Also, as mentioned, there can be a lot of overlap between some Knowledge skills... Knowledge of a certain society may fall under (Geography), but also certainly under (Local). When down in the dungeon, a statue may just be a statue, to most, but Knowledge (History), (Local), or (Nobility & Royalty) might identify who it is a statue of. Knowledge of (Arcana) or (History) might give hints as to the demise of the ancient Suel kingdom... Etc.
ALL of these methods, taken together, would give a MASSIVE boost to PCs (and many might argue "too much!"). Any of them would yield a slight boost. A few, in combination, would strengthen a few classes.
In any case, there are enough Knowledge skills, and no need for more... Knowledge (Tactics) should go under (History). Knowledge (Psionics) should go under (Arcana), or perhaps (Nature), if you want to use "Psionics are Different". Knowledge (Astrology) or (Astronomy) should go under (Nature). There is no need to be adding more...
Now making USE of the Knowledge skills, during the game, is up to both the GM and the PCs. MOST of these skills give knowledge of the capabilities of SOME sort of creature, and ALL of them give a Synergy Bonus to SOME ability (even if it's one the PC doesn't have). Allowing 5+ ranks to give that ability might also help make PCs want to take those skills, at least a little... The ability to answer DC:10+ questions already does!
I like skillful, competent PCs, myself, so I allow all characters their full skill points, as well as (4 + INT Bonus) Racial Background Skills/15 years of age, x4 at first level. Huamns get +!, and Half-Elves/Half-Orcs get +1/30 years. While Dwarves & Elves seem to clean up, at first, the Huamns and Half-Humans really do... Anyway, these points can ONLY be spent on Racial Background Skills, which always include some Knowledge skills, Crafts, Professions, and Performance styles.
After CharGen, all classes get +1 Rank/level in all of their class skills. This means that, once a skill has been maxed out, that it will remain maxed out, without needing to keep further track of it... It also means that all classes have all the appropriate Knowledge skills, as well as AT LEAST one Craft and Profession/level (except for the poor Fighter)!
In addition, five Ranks in Knowledge (History) gives you a +2 Synergy Bonus to Bardic Knowledge. I allow this to apply to ALL PCs, whether or not they have Bardic Knowledge. ANY Bard will always be better than them, in this, but if there isn't one in the party, the knowledgable PC can at least try, with a +2 bonus, where no one else can.
Also, Rangers with an appropriate Favored Enemy are always treated as being skilled in the appropriate Knowledge skill, even though it may be Cross-Class... For instance, a Ranger with Favored Enemy: Orcs at +2 is treated as unskilled in Knowledge (Local), except where it applies to Orcs, then he is treated as skilled, and gets +2 on the roll. The same with Knowledge of Orcish society, etc. Likewise, a Ranger with Favored Enemy: Humanoids (Evil). A Ranger with FE: Dragons is treated as unskilled in Knowledge (Arcana) for purposes of recognizing magical goodies, but as skilled (with his FE Bonus) for anything having to do with Dragons.
Also, I would add Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) and Knowledge (History) to the Fighter's skills. When the Captain orders the men to the merlons, or to the murder holes, they need to know where to go... Also, Knowledge (Engineering) should allow Fighters to operate the Siege Engines, using THAT skill, instead of BAB to hit. Knowledge (History) mentions that it covers ancient battles, and therefore covers the knowledge of both Strategy and Tactics that so many DMs seem to want to add... Besides, Knowledge (History) eventually gives that +2 Synergy Bonus to Bardic Knowledge, and many old Fighters historically became Bards, so this seems to fit, to me...
Knowledge (Engineering) covers a lot more ground, in my games than it seems to, in many... Any time that a PC wants something new invented, they will either need this skill, or money to hire someone with it, to draft their new plans. New devices made without it may have certain... "oddities"..., and not operate quite as expected...
Also, as mentioned, there can be a lot of overlap between some Knowledge skills... Knowledge of a certain society may fall under (Geography), but also certainly under (Local). When down in the dungeon, a statue may just be a statue, to most, but Knowledge (History), (Local), or (Nobility & Royalty) might identify who it is a statue of. Knowledge of (Arcana) or (History) might give hints as to the demise of the ancient Suel kingdom... Etc.
ALL of these methods, taken together, would give a MASSIVE boost to PCs (and many might argue "too much!"). Any of them would yield a slight boost. A few, in combination, would strengthen a few classes.
In any case, there are enough Knowledge skills, and no need for more... Knowledge (Tactics) should go under (History). Knowledge (Psionics) should go under (Arcana), or perhaps (Nature), if you want to use "Psionics are Different". Knowledge (Astrology) or (Astronomy) should go under (Nature). There is no need to be adding more...
Now making USE of the Knowledge skills, during the game, is up to both the GM and the PCs. MOST of these skills give knowledge of the capabilities of SOME sort of creature, and ALL of them give a Synergy Bonus to SOME ability (even if it's one the PC doesn't have). Allowing 5+ ranks to give that ability might also help make PCs want to take those skills, at least a little... The ability to answer DC:10+ questions already does!
