D&D General Are NPCs like PCs?

[TwoSix]

Yeah, we're just too far apart on this one to come to any sort of mutual agreement. I think the idea that PCs are entitled to be able to learn spells or techniques used by NPCs is just silly. First of all, abilities that exist to make a single fight more interesting are almost certainly not balanced against PC abilities which are forever. Second, as I have said, wonder is a huge part of play for me as a GM and that means PCs encountering stuff they have never seen before and barely comprehend -- and that they certainly can't have.

I think there's some room in the middle, here. I mean, a specialized sword technique is something I would generally be amenable to a PC learning. A powerful technique might take months or years of in-game time and spending multiple levels on it, though.

Some magical abilities might just be due to the inherent nature of the creature in question, though, and those are typically well beyond the ability of a PC to acquire. Some evil cultist might be empowered by a demon bound to his soul to cast a specialized spell, that circumstance can easily be something that's not replicable by the PCs.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Yeah, we're just too far apart on this one to come to any sort of mutual agreement. I think the idea that PCs are entitled to be able to learn spells or techniques used by NPCs is just silly. First of all, abilities that exist to make a single fight more interesting are almost certainly not balanced against PC abilities which are forever. Second, as I have said, wonder is a huge part of play for me as a GM and that means PCs encountering stuff they have never seen before and barely comprehend -- and that they certainly can't have.

I don't think balance can be used as a satisfying explanation. If a swashbuckler-like enemy disarmed two opponents in the same whirlwind disarm attack, I can't see the characters wondering where to learn this trick and just saying around the campgire at the end of the day "it would be unbalanced for us to learn it, let's pursue other endeavours". Maybe they killed the last of a long line of master swordmaster and the secret perished with him... but I am 100% sure of whzt thzt explanation would produce. "Let's amputate his head so we can ask the details as soon as we get Speak with Dead!". Wanting to lean lost and forbidden knowledge isn't the sole trope of wizards. The answer could very well be "find a master and your next level of fighter will allow you to take it instead of such and such class feature" or the social or moral consequences could stop the PC... but a hard block would feel very much like railroading. And the more if the technisue appears to be mundane or similar in origin to one of the PCs' own. (if an archmage cast a spell, at some point the group wizard can expect to grow in knowledge and become able to cast the same spell).

I am speaking of leanrnable abilities here not "grow a tentacle or srpout wings". If I wanted to keep it extremely separated I'd probably implement an in-story reason like @jgsungden did.

 

[Maxperson]

I don; think there is a meaningful distinction between "an ability PCs can't learn because it is a species trait" and "an ability PCs can't learn because it is just a cool power designed to make the encounter more fun." In either case, it is an NPC only thing.

Why would a fighter be unable to learn that Redirecting Riposte you mentioned earlier? It's a skill. Anyone can learn a skill like that if they get a teacher or even practice enough after having seen it done.

 

[Reynard]

Why would a fighter be unable to learn that Redirecting Riposte you mentioned earlier? It's a skill. Anyone can learn a skill like that if they get a teacher or even practice enough after having seen it done.

Because it isn't a PC ability.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, we're just too far apart on this one to come to any sort of mutual agreement. I think the idea that PCs are entitled to be able to learn spells or techniques used by NPCs is just silly. First of all, abilities that exist to make a single fight more interesting are almost certainly not balanced against PC abilities which are forever. Second, as I have said, wonder is a huge part of play for me as a GM and that means PCs encountering stuff they have never seen before and barely comprehend -- and that they certainly can't have.

@Lanefan isn't saying that they are entitled to learn those things. He's saying it should be possible. Perhaps Redirecting Riposte is beyond any mortal to learn, but if you sell your soul to an Archdevil, you can gain the ability. A player might not want to do it, but it should be possible for the player to discover the method and pursue it if desired. And again, pursuit doesn't equate to success.

 

[Maxperson]

Because it isn't a PC ability.

That's not a good reason.

 

[Maxperson]

I think there's some room in the middle, here. I mean, a specialized sword technique is something I would generally be amenable to a PC learning. A powerful technique might take months or years of in-game time and spending multiple levels on it, though.

If a PC wanted to learn something like that, I'd probably allow it to substitute for one of their future comparable class abilities.

 

[Blue]

Your first statement is a play style preference.

No, it is an official fact. Look at the NPCs in the MM. I even gave an example - the Druid from the MM can cast 4th level spells and does not have wildshape.

 

[Reynard]

That's not a good reason.

I'll explain better, but the effect is the same: That ability or spell exists solely to make an encounter more fun and more memorable and is not just not intended for PC use, it is not remotely balanced for it. I am not generally opposed to players wanting to look outside the box for character development, and I'm not even opposed to them taking inspiration from some enemy ability they thought was pretty cool. But that ability invented for the encounter itself is not something accessible to the PCs because it only exists for that limited purpose and probably does not have anything but the most tenuous connection to the actual fiction of the game. That fiery tentacle spell like ability has a cool name because I read too many Dr. Fate comics as a kid but it isn't a "wizard spell." It's a type of damage connected to a status effect because that would make for a fun, challenging encounter against the PCs.

 

[Maxperson]

I'll explain better, but the effect is the same: That ability or spell exists solely to make an encounter more fun and more memorable and is not just not intended for PC use, it is not remotely balanced for it. I am not generally opposed to players wanting to look outside the box for character development, and I'm not even opposed to them taking inspiration from some enemy ability they thought was pretty cool. But that ability invented for the encounter itself is not something accessible to the PCs because it only exists for that limited purpose and probably does not have anything but the most tenuous connection to the actual fiction of the game. That fiery tentacle spell like ability has a cool name because I read too many Dr. Fate comics as a kid but it isn't a "wizard spell." It's a type of damage connected to a status effect because that would make for a fun, challenging encounter against the PCs.

Yeah. That's more or less what I understood from the shorter version.

What I'm saying is that it's not a good reason to sacrifice what makes sense. If you are introducing an ability that isn't balanced and it's learnable/gainable, then you should introduce a balancer into the mix. Maybe the ability is a very strong one, so into it you design into the ability requirements a crystal that must be implanted into the body in order to gain it. This crystal taxes the system harshly and there is a permanent loss of 4 constitution points and the corresponding hit points. Now it's an ability that the PC can possibly gain if he wants to, but it comes with a high cost that the NPC clearly thought was worth paying. Will the PC? Maybe, maybe not.

Now you don't have to just say, "You can't learn it, because you can't learn it." which is very unsatisfying and leaves the game world a place that makes less sense. You can allow the PC to research the process and decide if the cost is one he will pay.