D&D General Are NPCs like PCs?

[Helldritch]

But why? What's so special about a caster, as opposed to a Black Lotus Assassin (with special kill you abilities) or a Dark Forest Blight Hag (with a withering evil eye)?

Where are these from? Certainly not from either the MM, Volo or MtoF. Homebrew? A reference to 3.5ed?
Without source I can only guess.
But check the Orc eye of Gruumsh. He has the powers of a 3rd level caster. Just that tells you how many spell slots he has. He also has an other ability. Under 1-3.5ed, this additional ability would not exist and the EoG would have 3HD. With the "blend" he has more HP and has a nice ability. IF you care to go over the other similar monsters, you will notice that they all conform to this way of doing things. This can be helpful for many new DM in modifying their monsters or creating new ones based on what is consistent. In 4ed, monster design was not consistent or should I say consistent in its inconsistency? Especially at high level.

 

[Hussar]

There were specifically level NPCs on the encounter lists, so maybe that's the thing?

Ok, but, look at orcs. An orc leader is just an orc that uses the 2 HD attack chart and has some bonus HP. That's not "adding levels" and has nothing to do with PC rules. They just arbitrarily make bigger orcs.

 

[Reynard]

Where are these from? Certainly not from either the MM, Volo or MtoF. Homebrew? A reference to 3.5ed?
Without source I can only guess.

They aren't from anywhere. I just made them up to illustrate the point that only casters seem to be under this special rule that their abilities must conform to stuff in the PHB. NPCs with special skill/combat training, or monsters with weird magical abilities aren't subject to the rule and there does not seem to be any rhyme or reason for it.

 

[Hussar]

Anyway, yeah, I've seen where this little road leads and it's nowhere productive, so, fair enough @Helldritch, You are absolutely right and I bow to your superior knowledge of editions.

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Back to the thread. I support 100% the notion that PC's and NPC's need not share anything. There's absolutely no reason to use the PHB rules when making monsters. It's needlessly complex, adds nothing to the game and just makes DMing a nightmare. For a creature that is probably only going to be on stage for a single encounter, if it takes me longer to create the monster than I'm actually going to use it in play, that's just something that needs to go away.

 

[Helldritch]

Nope. Not true. Why do people insist that this is true? These claims that things are suddenly changed in 4e, when the change was 3e and 4e changed things back is just so bizarre. Why do you think this?

What class was a Death Knight? And how come it can cast a Fireball while wearing Plate Mail?

This is why I get so annoyed as soon as we try to have any conversation about this sort of stuff. This is EXACTLY the point I made in the other thread about the History of the OSR. Revisionist history and claims of "The Way Things Were" that are laughably easy to disprove.

1ed DMG
Encounter tables.
NPC party.
Page 175 and up. These NPC conforms in all aspect to PC. Even down to the potential henchmen...
Would second edition tell you the same thing. Of course.
And third edition would too.
What 3rd edition did that other edition did not was to add spell casting classes to monsters that should not have had it. Adding a level of design that was a hell of a truck load of work for the DM. 4ed cleaned that up but in the process, cleared too much for the taste of many. 5ed was a nice blend.

 

[TwoSix]

Not for 5e, no. OSR style games would be different.

For my games, PCs have boundaries that NPCs don't, NPCs can overly specialize in ways PCs can't. An NPC might have a 5th level spell they can use at-will, or have multiple custom fighting styles. They're not inaccessible to the PCs, but most PCs probably don't want to spend the equivalent of years and multiple levels to gain the idiosyncratic abilities that the NPCs have.

 

[Helldritch]

They aren't from anywhere. I just made them up to illustrate the point that only casters seem to be under this special rule that their abilities must conform to stuff in the PHB. NPCs with special skill/combat training, or monsters with weird magical abilities aren't subject to the rule and there does not seem to be any rhyme or reason for it.

Found references of these on the PF wikki. Must have heard about those I guess

 

[Helldritch]

Anyway, yeah, I've seen where this little road leads and it's nowhere productive, so, fair enough @Helldritch, You are absolutely right and I bow to your superior knowledge of editions.

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Back to the thread. I support 100% the notion that PC's and NPC's need not share anything. There's absolutely no reason to use the PHB rules when making monsters. It's needlessly complex, adds nothing to the game and just makes DMing a nightmare. For a creature that is probably only going to be on stage for a single encounter, if it takes me longer to create the monster than I'm actually going to use it in play, that's just something that needs to go away.

You know that there is a difference between a monster and an NPC?
Here we look not at the monsters, but at those at the end of the book. Appendice B: Nonplayer Characters. P342. All casters conforms to the casting table of their appropriate spell casting classes and level. The arch mage is an 18th level casters, has the casting table of an 18th full caster and even the HD. Same thing with the acolyte and all other casters. Why change that? There were no reasons to change this at all.

 

[Krachek]

I like to play in a fantasy world where I don’t know every mechanics about magic.
It’s hard at first to place faith in DM and receive description as the reality, and don’t quit by asking “what spell do that”, “Does he still have spell slot usable”.
From a NPC point of view, character may not know how many hit point he have,
cleric may don’t even know they have a spell list, they pray their god and receive power.
Managing spell slot is a not doing arcane magic, it’s playing a game name dnd!

 

[Reynard]

Found references of these on the PF wikki. Must have heard about those I guess

Osmosis FTW.

But you haven't answered the question.