D&D 5E Are powergamers a problem and do you allow them to play in your games?

[Oofta]

So, let me start by acknowledging the obvious- the thread is obvious flamebait.

Let me also state that I am a big believer that any playstyle is a valid one. What I find fun, is not what someone else finds fun, and vice versa. D&D is a big tent that allows for a variety of playing styles, and the only two things we should all agree on is that playing styles are a matter of choices, and that paladins suck.

That said, I don't agree with this comment. It's like the old saw about a poker game- if you walk into a poke game, and you don't know who the mark is, you're the mark. It's kind of the same with D&D.

If you're playing at a table that doesn't want, or like, optimization ("powergaming"), then there is no good way to to be a powergamer. No matter how much you might think you're the "good" powergamer, it just doesn't work.

Even assuming you're trying you're best, you will eventually run into the Angel Summoner / BMX Bandit problem (if you're not familiar with it, search for it on youtube ... trust me, it's worth it). Now, 5e isn't as prone to the problem as some editions (3e), but it still exists. And the generous "sharing the spotlight" eventually just becomes, "Well, gee, that's nice that you're letting us pop our wheelies, but I guess you should just summon your angelic hordes and get this over with already."

All of this is to say that the table should communicate their preferences clearly. If the table is a beer & pizza & catching up with friends table, then you shouldn't powergame. If, on the other hand, the players at your table are really into the rules and optimization, then everything is gravy. Adjust your playstyle depending on the table.

In the end, I find that players who try to optimize the group fun over their own fun, tend to have more fun themselves. A rising tide and all that.

Going back to the OP, we don't have powergamers at my main table. It's been my experience (which is anecdotal), that the powergamers who are problems tend to believe that their way to play is the "correct" way, and that powergaming is just a manifestation of a jerk-y personality. On the other hand, there are those who powergame (optimize) because they enjoy it, and once they understand that this table doesn't play that way, they have no difficulty dialing it down and fitting in - because they want to have fun more than they want to powergame.

So, wrapping up- there are all sorts of jerks, unfortunately. Some are powergamers. Not all powergamers are jerks. Optimizing is totally fine, but make sure that's what the table wants to do. In the end, like all things, communication with the table is what matters. D&D is a fun, social game, and everyone's fun is enhanced when we are pushing for the same common goal. Which is fun. And no paladins.

Some people are better at creating effective builds than others, some people are simply better at tactics than others. Give two people exactly the same builds (especially spell casters with a lot of options) and in many cases one person will be far more effective at their role than another.

But I don't see why someone who is more effective at their role automatically makes them someone that would not be fun to play with. As far as the Angel Summoner / BMX Bandit problem, the only time I've seen that is when you have some characters heavily reliant on daily/recharge powers in games that only do 2-4 encounters between long rests. That's on the DM, not the players. In my experience 5E works better in that respect than previous editions if you follow the guidelines.

 

[Oofta]

How about you actually give an explanation as to why it's wrong?

How about giving an example of a "game breaking" build and explaining why you can't just fix it as a DM either by using different tactics, ruling differently or simply creating a house rule.

 

[TwoSix]

Why would I ban myself from my own games?

 

[FrogReaver]

Another let's ban powergamers thread. Let's all just all walk away and let it die a cold lonely death.

#1. I can tell you what disruptive powergaming is when I see it but NO ONE can preemptively define it in such a way that it covers just the things they want it to cover and none of the things they don't want it to cover.

#2. Disruptive powergaming is relatively rare.

#3. There is already a perfect solution to disruptive powergaming. Just ask the player out of game to make a character less effective than his current and closer to the effectiveness of the group. It can be a character with the same theme. It can be a different character. In some cases it may be just not taking the 2nd part of a 2 part combination to finish optimizing his current character. Whatever, the path is, the solution is the same. Talk to the player out of game.

 

[Corpsetaker]

Another let's ban powergamers thread. Let's all just all walk away and let it die a cold lonely death.

#1. I can tell you what disruptive powergaming is when I see it but NO ONE can preemptively define it in such a way that it covers just the things they want it to cover and none of the things they don't want it to cover.

#2. Disruptive powergaming is relatively rare.

#3. There is already a perfect solution to disruptive powergaming. Just ask the player out of game to make a character less effective than his current and closer to the effectiveness of the group. It can be a character with the same theme. It can be a different character. In some cases it may be just not taking the 2nd part of a 2 part combination to finish optimizing his current character. Whatever, the path is, the solution is the same. Talk to the player out of game.

Actually it's not rare, it's actually quite common.

 

[FrogReaver]

Actually it's not rare, it's actually quite common.

So what about the rest of my post?

 

[Corpsetaker]

So what about the rest of my post?

I've already addressed those in my initial post.

 

[FrogReaver]

I've already addressed those in my initial post.

I've been a gamer for over 30 years now and in all the time I've been gaming I've tried to accommodate everyone's playstyle. Well I'm afraid I don't look at powergaming as a playstyle anymore, I see it as a problem. I no longer allow powergamers at my table, nor will I play in a game with them. Every time I have ran games with a powergamer it always, and I mean always, ended up falling apart. I'm not talking about someone who arranges their states to fit the race and class perfectly, I'm talking about those that really go out of their way to find every game breaking combo they can find.

I actually class this as disruptive behaviour and I do not tolerate it. I had been in a on going 5th edition game where we had a powergamer who ended up making all encounters a cakewalk and the DM started handing out magic items left right and center to try and balance things but it only ended up getting out of control, like it always has no matter the edition. I decided then and there that I had enough.

To me powergaming is just another form of disruptive behaviour and I will not allow it in my games anymore.

Anyone else have this kind of problem?

Help me out here, which part of the above addresses what I said?

"#1. I can tell you what disruptive powergaming is when I see it but NO ONE can preemptively define it in such a way that it covers just the things they want it to cover and none of the things they don't want it to cover.

#3. There is already a perfect solution to disruptive powergaming. Just ask the player out of game to make a character less effective than his current and closer to the effectiveness of the group. It can be a character with the same theme. It can be a different character. In some cases it may be just not taking the 2nd part of a 2 part combination to finish optimizing his current character. Whatever, the path is, the solution is the same. Talk to the player out of game."

 

[schnee]

#1. I can tell you what disruptive powergaming is when I see it but NO ONE can preemptively define it in such a way that it covers just the things they want it to cover and none of the things they don't want it to cover.

Like immorality.

#2. Disruptive powergaming is relatively rare.

How old are you? it was common when was young, uncommon now that our table is early 30's average. I think that goes right along with the maturity level of the people at those stages of their lives, emotional development, and maturity.

#3. There is already a perfect solution to disruptive powergaming. Just ask the player out of game to make a character less effective than his current and closer to the effectiveness of the group. It can be a character with the same theme. It can be a different character. In some cases it may be just not taking the 2nd part of a 2 part combination to finish optimizing his current character. Whatever, the path is, the solution is the same. Talk to the player out of game.

Been there, done that, and it's never worked. Every powergamer I've played with has a fundamentally different approach to the game from me, and they can't step it down without losing their sense of fun.

The times we've tried, it's failed. It's the right thing to try to reach out, but the most likely outcome is for you each to go your separate ways.

 

[Nevvur]

Remove feats and multiclassing. They're the lifeblood of powergaming in 5e, and optional systems besides.

Caution: won't fix glassbowls