D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Eric V]

I'm not actually criticizing 4e. I think with a little retouching, it could have been my favorite edition of D&D. I had a good time, but some of my players couldn't handle all the powers. I had one girl who never bothered to use any of her encounter or daily powers because keeping track of them was too much work. She was also playing a druid.

My main complaints were:

• Not enough out of combat utility powers
• combat took too long
• healing surge returned too quickly (gritty realism variant needed)

Second point is why the game lost steam with my group, though I admit I would have loved to see points 1 and 3 added as options.

 

[BryonD]

I agree 100% with the sections I quoted from Hussar. Why is that so difficult for you to understand and accept? I am also a 100% firm believer that 4E's presentation (in many ways) was it's biggest flaw and not it's gameplay. I also 100% believe that had the game been presented in a more traditional manner, it would have been far more successful than it was. I also 100% believe that many people "didn't get it" , in the same way many people "don't get" Dungeon World or FATE or Hero Wars/Hero Quest Glorantha any other # of games that veer off into non traditional gameplay territory.

OK, clear enough. It is OK to disagree, unless you don't like it.
Gotcha.

I didn't like 4E. I know many many people who like 4E at less than I did. I literally know of nobody who complained about 4E and could not put words to their complaints which completely contradicting your presumptions.

And, seriously, if I were to say that you clearly must agree that 3X is the best game ever because I enjoy it, therefore your lack of enthusiasm clearly comes from your failure to penetrate the presentation and see its true glory, you would think I was nuts. And IF I said that, I would be. Yet, you are insisting that it is completely reasonable to say that same thing in reverse.

And yet you casually say you are OK with disagreement....

Quite simply,you have no business speaking for other people and you are wrong (deeply wrong) about 4E's problem when evaluated from the point of view of those who did not like it. You can't force your perspective on others.

I hope that satisfies your need to have an answer from me, because I'm tuning out from any more of your demands to explain myself. Give it a rest.

Understood. I wouldn't want to try to defend your position and contradictions further either.

 

[BryonD]

I cannot remember where but I thought I had seen a laundry list of the complaints and the roughly matching case in 5e and how the presentation differs verses how minor or great the actual change in function was I may start looking or perhaps such a thing would help 4e fans make 5e work better for them. Maybe I was just wishing I seen that.

I know that when I threw out my list of ways 5E was different, nobody took up the challenge.

 

[Zardnaar]

I agree 100% with the sections I quoted from Hussar. Why is that so difficult for you to understand and accept? I am also a 100% firm believer that 4E's presentation (in many ways) was it's biggest flaw and not it's gameplay. I also 100% believe that had the game been presented in a more traditional manner, it would have been far more successful than it was. I also 100% believe that many people "didn't get it" , in the same way many people "don't get" Dungeon World or FATE or Hero Wars/Hero Quest Glorantha any other # of games that veer off into non traditional gameplay territory.

I hope that satisfies your need to have an answer from me, because I'm tuning out from any more of your demands to explain myself. Give it a rest.

Presentation doesn't help but 4Es biggest flaw is it's character class design/playstyle.

Most of the complaints against 4E primarily boil down the the classes chapter.

It doesn't matter how well 4E would be presented.

There's a tendency to try and minimise peoples opinions on the forums but people just don't like 4E. That's it's core problem.

It's not because 4E was badly designed, it was over designed if anything. The assumptions they made designing it were wrong from the get go.

Nothing can save it from that.

 

[Garthanos]

I know that when I threw out my list of ways 5E was different, nobody took up the challenge.

I am sure your list was different than the majority we heard.

 

[BryonD]

I am sure your list was different than the majority we heard.

If you say so. I have no way of knowing what you heard.
As I said just above, most people I know that worse of 4E than I did.
But, since you are making distinctions, may I infer that perhaps, at least for little me, my personal complaints might not fall within simple presentation? Would you allow that this is a possibility?

Edit: I'd add that back when 4E mattered, I was active in the conversations and my concerns aligned well with most everyone else there as well.

 

[JeffB]

@BryonD
@Zardnaar

All the things you both mention, I can easily turn around and refute your position in the opposite direction. "wrong" is subjective. "everyone I know" is anecdotal. Your experiences don't make mine any less valid, and vice versa. I explained my views previously. Don't like it?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I know that when I threw out my list of ways 5E was different, nobody took up the challenge.

To be fair, judging by your interaction in this thread, I wouldn’t bother responding to such a challenge from you. Doesn’t seem like my replies would be treated with any respect or courtesy.

 

[Zardnaar]

@BryonD
@Zardnaar

All the things you both mention, I can easily turn around and refute your position in the opposite direction. "wrong" is subjective. "everyone I know" is anecdotal. Your experiences don't make mine any less valid, and vice versa. I explained my views previously. Don't like it?

Except we have evidence of everyone migrating to Pathfinder and online tables.

Online 4E games are rarer than OSR games, 3E games, Pathfinder etc.

You can clone 4E with the ogl. It's been 10 years, no clone.

 

[BryonD]

@ByronD
@ Zardnaar

All the things you both mention, I can easily turn around and refute your position in the opposite direction. "wrong" is subjective. "everyone I know" is anecdotal. Your experiences don't make mine any less valid, and vice versa. I explained my views previously. Don't like it?

you misspelled my name.

But that aside "WHAT???" We are talking about my subjective opinion.
Go back and read where OVER and OVER I didn't just acknowledge YOUR opinion, I PRAISED it!!! 4E was awesome at delivery a particular game for a specific subset of the fanbase that is GREAT!!!

But you are the one insisting that my opinion of 4E must be tied to failure to "get it".

Your side is the ONLY side trying to invalidate the other side. Just say it: Not liking 4E is a valid opinion even for someone who completely understands it.

Seriously, point to ANY place where I said anything about why YOU shouldn't like 4E. Point to ANY place I said you should do anything other than shrug about my opinion.
The problem is, you can't bring yourself to shrug. For some odd reason you are obsessed with denying that my opinion can exist.

Your experiences don't make mine invalid. Why are you compelled to proclaim otherwise?
Will you retract that?