Are the PDFs illegal, if you own the books?
- Thread starter TimeOut
- Start date
A couple of points here, not based on any legal knowledge, but just observations from working in the Internet business, and following other cases like this in the past:
1- Your IP address (logged on a torrent site - IF they log them), does not in any way contain your name or home address. It's just a number. Any investigator would then have to appeal to the ISP that IP came from for THEIR records of which customer was assigned that IP at the date and time specified.
Most ISPs are very reluctant to release their IP records, as it's a customer privacy issue. Usually it takes a warrant or subpoena.
To get a warrant or subpoena, a company/organization has to convince a law enforcement body to convince a judge that one is necessary.
Keep in mind that this happens successfully all the time, in cases of Internet fraud or even nastier crimes. But the severity of any possible crime brings us to point #2:
2 - WotC would have to decide to investigate/prosecute fans/customers of their products. Just an aside, for an industry that depends solely on the fervor of a minority population, I don't think it would be good public relations to investigate/prosecute people who have probably also spent $100s on their products.
1- Your IP address (logged on a torrent site - IF they log them), does not in any way contain your name or home address. It's just a number. Any investigator would then have to appeal to the ISP that IP came from for THEIR records of which customer was assigned that IP at the date and time specified.
Most ISPs are very reluctant to release their IP records, as it's a customer privacy issue. Usually it takes a warrant or subpoena.
To get a warrant or subpoena, a company/organization has to convince a law enforcement body to convince a judge that one is necessary.
Keep in mind that this happens successfully all the time, in cases of Internet fraud or even nastier crimes. But the severity of any possible crime brings us to point #2:
2 - WotC would have to decide to investigate/prosecute fans/customers of their products. Just an aside, for an industry that depends solely on the fervor of a minority population, I don't think it would be good public relations to investigate/prosecute people who have probably also spent $100s on their products.
Mercule
Adventurer
IANAL
From back in the Napster heyday, what I remember of the discussion is that it is unlawful to download an mp3 of a song for which you own the CD. You may lawfully burn your own (not sure how/if the DMCA changes this). I would assume the same holds for print vs. PDF.
For myself, my Amazon order will be a month late. BN.com doesn't have any in stock, neither did the other couple on-line spots I checked. The local stores don't have any copies. I am pretty much SOL in locating any legal copy of the books, right now, but I have kept my order on Amazon. I also intend to subscribe to DDI and buy the official PDFs of all the hardcovers I buy from WotC (assuming they were serious about a minimal price on the PDF, otherwise, I'll just use the dead trees).
Meanwhile, I'm doing my darnedest to pimp 4e to my current 3.5 group. To my knowledge, none of my players has any illegal music or books and they will buy the core rules, if we convert. If WotC asks me to stop promoting their stuff, I will -- I'm sure the extra month isn't going to cause me any undue hardship.
Sometimes moral and/or ethical do not share the same space as legal.
You will also, please, note that I did not say I have the PDFs of the core 4e books. Nor did I advise anyone to torrent them. That I would definitely not do because there are plenty of people, I'm sure, who would get the PDF in place of the actual book. There are also a few people who would rather spend a few hours downloading the PDF, then spend $40 each on the the paper and ink to print it out than to spend $25-30 on a nicely bound hardcover. I don't understand those people, but that is neither ethical nor legal.
From back in the Napster heyday, what I remember of the discussion is that it is unlawful to download an mp3 of a song for which you own the CD. You may lawfully burn your own (not sure how/if the DMCA changes this). I would assume the same holds for print vs. PDF.
For myself, my Amazon order will be a month late. BN.com doesn't have any in stock, neither did the other couple on-line spots I checked. The local stores don't have any copies. I am pretty much SOL in locating any legal copy of the books, right now, but I have kept my order on Amazon. I also intend to subscribe to DDI and buy the official PDFs of all the hardcovers I buy from WotC (assuming they were serious about a minimal price on the PDF, otherwise, I'll just use the dead trees).
Meanwhile, I'm doing my darnedest to pimp 4e to my current 3.5 group. To my knowledge, none of my players has any illegal music or books and they will buy the core rules, if we convert. If WotC asks me to stop promoting their stuff, I will -- I'm sure the extra month isn't going to cause me any undue hardship.
Sometimes moral and/or ethical do not share the same space as legal.
You will also, please, note that I did not say I have the PDFs of the core 4e books. Nor did I advise anyone to torrent them. That I would definitely not do because there are plenty of people, I'm sure, who would get the PDF in place of the actual book. There are also a few people who would rather spend a few hours downloading the PDF, then spend $40 each on the the paper and ink to print it out than to spend $25-30 on a nicely bound hardcover. I don't understand those people, but that is neither ethical nor legal.
TheYeti1775
Adventurer
I would venture to guess the average downloader does it to see what's there.
I like PDF's and a lot of time those $5 ones will lead me to buy the full price hard copy.
You don't need BitTorrent or any of those to find this stuff, heck I could search and find it using Google. Use the right keywords (and no I won't provide it) and my first 3 hits in the list have the Core Books available. That took me about 3 minutes while I read the thread and did it on another window.
Now keep in mind many will just go to the local coffee shop enjoy a cup and download it right from there.
I like PDF's and a lot of time those $5 ones will lead me to buy the full price hard copy.
You don't need BitTorrent or any of those to find this stuff, heck I could search and find it using Google. Use the right keywords (and no I won't provide it) and my first 3 hits in the list have the Core Books available. That took me about 3 minutes while I read the thread and did it on another window.
Now keep in mind many will just go to the local coffee shop enjoy a cup and download it right from there.
Vanuslux
Explorer
I'm fairly anti-piracy now that for most things there's legal alternatives. For $10 a month, I can listen to all the music I want on Rhapsody. For $10 a month, Netflix satisfies my movies needs. I use Gamefly for my video game fix. I'm a big fan of legal RPG PDF sites when it comes to third-party stuff. Unfortunately, those sites are a pay per download model and much of the mainstream stuff is grossly overpriced. Do I pay $20 for a physical copy of a WotC book via Amazon, or $30 for a ditigal copy from drivethrurpg? Let me think about that...hmmm...
Anyway, yes, it is illegal to download PDFs of books you own but hopefully someday there will be a reasonable legal alternative to having to do so. WotC was actually planning one for a bit there, but it seems they've back-pedalled on the whole cheap PDF copies of books you own thing...so, as far as I'm concerned...do what you gotta do. Of course, I'm just some idiot with an internet connection, not the law.
Anyway, yes, it is illegal to download PDFs of books you own but hopefully someday there will be a reasonable legal alternative to having to do so. WotC was actually planning one for a bit there, but it seems they've back-pedalled on the whole cheap PDF copies of books you own thing...so, as far as I'm concerned...do what you gotta do. Of course, I'm just some idiot with an internet connection, not the law.
drothgery said:
Common misconception. Every Friday is a day of penance. The common form of penance is abstinence from meat. A substitute penance is allowable in the USA on any Friday except during Lent. So on a non-Lenten Friday, you're either supposed to abstain from meat or do a substitute penance, like a Rosary or a Chaplet of Divine Mercy or some other work of charity.
i.e.: You are so busted.
The Little Raven
First Post
Nifft said:
Downloading them can still be considered to be "possession of stolen property," since the downloader knows that it isn't a legal source.
Charwoman Gene
Adventurer
Mourn said:
It's not stolen property. Is is illegal to own Bootleg DVDs? The crime would be the same. Trying to use "common sense" terms about legal issues is like arguing flavor text in the rules forum.
The Little Raven
First Post
Charwoman Gene said:
Yes.
Copying a product (whether physical or digital) without the permission of the copyright holder is a crime, and receiving a copy of an illegally copied book is receiving stolen goods.
Mourn said:
It's not theft; it's copyright infringement. Both are equally illegal, but they are two separate things, as evidenced by their different names.
But that's legal pedantry; in day-to-day colloquial conversation, "theft" is an acceptable word to use. But not as a legal term.
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