Are the Scarlet bro's and Iuz holding GREYHAWK back?

Emirikol said:
Where would you go with Greyhawk..or should it continue in the circle of balance leftover from FtA?

I had a nice long reply that just got nuked somehow, grr :/ I think you raise a good point, Jay. One of the things that I've always loved about Greyhawk was its "frameworkness"---I could take GH and spin and respin it from one-off to one-off, from campaign to campaign, and recreate it distinctly each time: each campaign fresh, some related to one another while others "reset" the setting and establish it afresh. Some examples: I've run a 175 CY game set on the Ferrond frontiers of the (good) Great Kingdom, in which many gods and NPCs and spells/magic items of 576+ CY don't exist (no Iggwilv, Mordenkainen, Bibgy, Iuz, Zagig/Zagyg, etc.); I've run another "good GK" game based on Rob Kuntz's Maze of Zayene modules in which Ivid is good and controlled by Zayene/Xaene, and after his rescue he tried to make amends with his neighbors and to purge his realm of evil; I've always wanted to run a glacial winter game, in which the black ice invades southward (icebergs in the Nyr Dyv and Wooly Bay, the perpetual nice-adventuring weather of the Flanaess shifted to frozen lands under a dim sun, etc.).

Jay, you an other older members of Greyhawk's online community will likely remember Montand's "Future of Greyhawk" post from Greytalk in 2001, in which he argues similarly that GH has grown stagnant and needs to be shaken up. Monty based his post in the existing canon of GH and extrapolated and created from there, rather than the one-offs I describe above, but both approaches are valid paths to reshaping GH in whatever image works best for you and your players.

Taras Guarhoth on Greytalk said:
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:55:16 -0400
Reply-To: Greyhawk <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Greyhawk <[log in to unmask]>
From: Taras Guarhoth <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The Future of Greyhawk
Comments: To: Greytalk <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Out of chaos, order forms. The civil war winds down in the Sea Princes, and the land coalesces into two stable states. Westkeep was held by the Keoish, but barely, and at great cost to their armies. Now two hostile nations, ruled by former Olman slaves, stare at each other across the lower Javan plains. But as much as they hate each other, they hate those to the north even more. And so it begins.

And out of renewed order, chaos and evil are born. Sterich, retaken from the giants settles back into it's daily life. But something is amiss within the land. A corruption rots at the heart of the old Earldom. A bloody coup is staged, and the Margrave is killed, some whisper sacrificed to foul gods, and the land begins to change. Keoland watches from across the Javan, sending in a token force that it quickly dispatched, their forces spent in the campaigns in the south.

Farther north, the Gran March and Geoff squabble endlessly over the city of Hochoch. Their attention is myopically focused on a tiny chunk of river land, and their resources are quickly dwindling. They fail to notice developments farther to the north, beyond the plains of Bissel. The lands of the Bakluni have been enflamed. A new leader has arisen among them, and demanded that they expand. A horde forms, and sweeps through the hills and vallies of Ket, and then presses beyond, into Bissel, swiftly destroying what resistance that land could muster. But they do not stop there. They press on, into the Gran March and Veluna, thrusting into the hearts of both lands.

Across the Yatils, the Wolf and Tiger nomads join their Bakluni bretherin, riding on Perrenland and Iuz. Although their gains are more modest, they do succeed in keeping the famed mercenaries of Perrenland home, and Iuz from pressing in upon his southern neighbor while Veluna distracts it. And distracted Furyondy is. The cities are scoured and fields emptied to push back the Bakluni horde. Veluna and Furyondy finally reunite, in a hasty attempt to shore up both lands against their invaders, and Ferrond is reborn. The horde is stopped, and pushed back to the Fals Gap...but not quite back through it.

All is not quiet elsewhere, however. Turrosh Mak, barely holding onto power, makes a renewed surge to the north, into the lands of Celene. None stand with the Fey Queen, remembering her refusal to stand with them. None can afford to, either, for war is breaking out. The elves fight hard and fiercly, but, in the end, they fail, and their land is overrun. But not only their land. Narwell and Safeton are ripped from the grasp of Greyhawk. Riots break out in the free cities as refugees flood into Verbobonc, Dyvers, Greyhawk City, and Hardby and chaos reigns in the lands south of the Unknown Depths.

The Pale strikes hard into Tenh, and pushes the Fists and a distracted Iuz from the land, claiming it in the name of He of the Blinding Light. The expanded Theocracy becomes even more repressive and institutes an inquisition across the whole of their land to root out the remnants of Iuz and other non-Pholtine religions, whether good or evil, lawful or chaotic. All will be stamped out in the name of Pholtus, while Nyrond teeters on the brink of collapse to the south, starvation and taxation and warfare having taken a heavy toll on the land.

The lands of Aerdy have not been quiet, either. Old North Province and Old South Province finally settle their scores within the heartlands of that formerly Great Kingdom. Warfare rages, cities burn, and in the end, Xavener takes his rightful place on the Malachite Throne, ruling a reunited empire that stretches from Idee in the south to North Province in the north. The land is awash in humanoids and mercenaries, a new round of civil war ready to sweep the land after it's Second Turmoil Between Crowns...but Xavener has something else in mind...

Aerdy's forces march on Almor, and that ravaged land swiftly returns to the fold of Imperial Aerdy as troops march across the land, sweeping through the near-rebellious Nyrondese. Nyrond rapidly gives ground to the Aerdi, suddenly feeling a dagger in it's side. The Pale. Revolts erupt in the north and west as the renewed warfare brings even greater hardship. Midmeadow openly rebells, and invites Palish troops in. Nyrond finds itself disintegrating rapidly. When the dust settles, the lines have been round to a halt. Rel Mord stands on the border, and Womtham has fallen. Nyrond is a much reduced nation and pleads with the Urnst states for help, which they grudgingly give, allowing the fallen kingdom to keep itself from being swept from the face of the Oerth.

Xavener also sends his troops south...and while Irongate withstands even more years of seige easily, Sunndi is not so lucky. For the second time in under two decades, the land finds itself fallen to Aerdy...and this time, there is no Osson to liberate them. The "king" of Sunndi is executed for treason, and Aerdy sets about occupying the land. But their occupation faces an unexpected setback. Bullywugs and lizardmen and other creatures from the Vast swamp pour out in all directions, slaughtering the forces of Sunndi and Aerdy alike. They claim half the Pawluck valley before they are finally ground to a halt by humanoid troops. The short-lived Kingdom of Sunndi is no more.

But is this all? Or is there more?

============================

Ok. Yes, there was a reason to all of that. A revelation hit me tonight. Greyhawk is stagnant. It is bloated. It is everything we accuse the Forgotten Realms of being, and then some.

Why do I make these outlandish claims?

Let us take a look. It has been a decade since the Wars were published, and like them or hate them, they were the last major change to the Flanaess. Nothing of real note has happened since then. A few borders shifted a little bit, a few faces changed, a few titles changed. But no real change happened. The Flanaess remained in the exact same place it was in 10 Real Life years ago.

And since then, we've sat around doing nothing of note. We've contemplated the scent of Otto's toejam, and what color Mordenkainen's belly-button lint is, all based on obscure passages from books so long out of print they aren't worth worrying about anymore or based on some utterances of some half remembered events that may have actually happened handed down from various creators, which, of course, are at odds with everything published.

And in doing so, we've locked out two simple things.

New People. And New Ideas.

We've let ourselves become every bit as decadent and decrepid as Imperial Aerdy under the last of the Raxes and the Naelaxes. We chained ourselves to our precious "Canon" for so long that we refused to accept the existance of anything not already mentioned in it. Hell, we codified it, in the form of NiteScreed's essay.

And so we damned ourselves.

How did the Forgotten Realms survive for years on a constant stream of product, which is probabily easily triple or quadruple what was produced for Greyhawk? They weren't afraid of change. They weren't afraid to shake things up. They weren't afraid to introduce a fresh face into the halls of power or use a fresh idea. But Greyhawk was. We demanded that villans be heavily tied to the setting, and so we forced the same tired faces to be reused. We never killed our enemies. Doing so would drastically reduce our options.

Greyhawk, if it is to survive, needs to change. It needs to burn, and then rise like a phoenix from it's ashes. It needs to shed itself of the foolish notions of rooting everything in something that came before.

Above was one possibility of how to do this...but there are others...I know, I've heard them. They came from the ancient and near-mythical time of TSR on the AOL boards. I have dim recollections of such things as a Rennisance in Keoland, and a Plague sweeping out of Celene. This is what Greyhawk needs now.

The question is...can we get it from anywhere?

Taras Montand Guarhoth
Canonfire! http://www.canonfire.com/
Submit Early, Submit Often...but make no mistake, you Will Submit!

Original post still archived on Greyhawk-l @ http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0110b&L=greyhawk-l&D=1&P=2265
 

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Greg V said:
I just remembered, that the new Drow of the Underdark book does do some development with Greyhawk, though the Underdark of the Flanaess is so limited in its development (pretty much the Vault of the Drow and surrounding environs), that it's pretty much a niche development and doesn't do much for the game world as a whole beyond what's up in Erelhei-Cinlu.

See the Dragonsfoot thread "DF Collab. Project: Mapping the Depths of the Earth" @ http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18908 for some excellent examples that developing/spice up the underworld wilderness from D1-3.
 

fusangite said:
Now, that stated, I think the best way to send an excellent published setting to hell is to start advancing time in it.

This sentiment has been variously expressed by a number of folks. The sentiment, not advancing the timeline for Greyhawk, is misplaced. It is misplaced because a) the timeline has already been advanced, that train has left the station, and b) leaving the timeline where it is after LGG is not an saleable option.

The LGG sort of, kinda softened the aftermath of the Greyhawk Wars and FtA. But not entirely. What LGG leaves you with is something neither fish nor fowl. LGG era Greyhawk comes off as half a loaf. To get the other half, the timeline needs to be advanced.

If we look at pre-FtA GH, the timeline did not need to be advanced via FtA. There was an, IMO, exquisite balance.

If we look at immediate post-FtA GH, the timeline did not need to be advanced. Pre Wars GH was wrecked and the setting was thematically consistent, like it or loath it.

If we look at LGG era Greyhawk, it is neither balanced nor is it thematically consistent. It is a hodge podge or, more charitably, it is GH in transition - not fully anything it was but yet to really hint at what it might be. The LGG authors split the baby and half a baby can't survive long term. The timelime must then be advanced past the LGG era.

If the timeline is not advanced past the LGG era, Greyhawk will remain stone cold dead, a prospect Wotc embraces. Fans who clamor for no advancing of the timeline post-LGG are doing yeoman's work for Wotc to provide a rationale for why Greyhawk should not be revived - LGG era Greyhawk is unsaleable and here are all these fans demanding that the timeline remain with the unsaleable LGG. Way to go GH "fans." With friends like these, GH needs no enemies.
 
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ColonelHardisson said:
I always thought of Greyhawk as being a snapshot in time of a setting, which is then developed at the gaming table by individual DMs. One of the things that turned me off of settings like FR was that they became ever-changing at the hands of someone other than individual DMs. Personally, I'd like to see Greyhawk remain as that snapshot, with supporting material simply detailing the setting at that moment in time. Yes, eventually you'd run out of stuff to detail, or end up detailing down to a ridiculous degree, if WotC felt the need to release a constant stream of GH material. Maybe at that point they could release "alternate universe" versions of GH, detailing how it would be if, say, Iuz was gone, or the timeline was advanced (maybe like the Greyhawk 2000 articles in Dragon and Dungeon years back), or there was an alien invasion, or whatever.

Yeah, I've run 4 campaigns using the '83 boxed set (my snapshot of choice), and each one has been very different from each other in tone and content.

I personally don't understand the gnashing of teeth over GH. I use it as a framework to build on. I really don't like most of the post 1985 stuff, but it's not like FtA broke into my house, burned my '83 boxed set, ate my lead minis, and threw my gamescience dice in a tumbler and smoothed them out. I don't use it, and I'm happy without, just as people who do use the material published post-Gary and enjoy it as much.

Whining, complaining, and displaying histrionics over this kind of thing is fatbeardishness at its worst.

Oh, and:

Greyhawk will continue to be dead and a used-up world until it changes. Iuz and SB are the biggest things holding it back. They are stagnant, used-up plotlines that are no longer cool.

jh

I've never used either in any of my 4 GH campaigns. When I finally do, they'll be nice and fresh to me. :)
 
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Erik Mona said:
The problem with Greyhawk, honestly, is that it is not actively supported and has no core setting book to establish the baseline with readers.

What's wrong with the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer as a core setting book?

BTW, I think you (and the others) did a great job of knitting together the FtA version of Greyhawk and the earlier (ahem, real) version of Greyhawk into something both sides could mostly live with. At least I assume I'm not the only one who hated LGG, but liked (with lots of DM editting) LGG.
 

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