D&D (2024) Greyhawk- New Map, Discussion of Changes

[Parmandur]

I’m very curious to see what they do with the demographics and what the reaction to that will be, since being humanocentric is one of the first things I always hear Greyhawk fans mention about it, along with that it’s “sword and sorcery,” that it’s “medieval to FR’s Renaissance,” and that it features all the most famous named characters.

I do think it will be interesting to see what WotC does: I expect somewhat less focus on demographics and military dispositions compared to the hardcore wargamer Gygax, but surely some information would be useful for modern players.

I think, to a large extent, they will handle it with a heavy dose of handwavium: "Of course Geoff has always had a large population of Goliath clans in the highlands, of course Iuz and the Horned Society have been rife with Tieflings, etc."

People really overplay how "humamocentric" or "gritty" Greyhawk is, it is just standard AD&D assumptions and wargamer conventions played out logically, whereas Forgotten Realms is AD&D rules grafted onto a hardcore Lieber/Tolkien/Howard/Narnia crossover fanfic played out to it’s logical conclusions. The nation's are mostly Human...but most of the map is not controlled by nations, basically only the green hexes. All those hills, forests, and mountains belong to demi-humans and humanoids.

 

[Hussar]

To be honest, we don't really know before we see the text. What is crystal clear from the map is that all metaplot geopolitical events after the original Folio/box set have been undone, which would match the setup on Ghosts of Saltmarsh, so it is a back to the original timeline reboot (countries that got wiped out in 1989 are restored, all countries are back to their original borders even if renamed).

Other than that, some of the changes are country names goijg from exonyjs to endonyms (the Tiger Nomads do not call themselves thsr, and their own name from the original Folio is the one on the map now instead of what the people fo Greyhawk call them, etc.). The Scsrlet Brotherhood has been renamed to the countrybname of Shar, which makes sense as that is like having called Thay "The Red Wizards" in a map.

Blackmoor, specifically, is the interesting exception was renamed Arn on the map, a clear reference to Dave Arneson. Unclear exactly hat that means until we have the text.

Broadly, the images and snippets have also demonstrated that Dragonborn and such are in Greyhawk retroactively, which is no shock.

This is also in keeping with Ghosts of Saltmarsh which features Dragonborn in the art as well as adding in Tieflings from Iuz. I imagine that it will likely be about as lightly dealt with as it was in GoS. Basically just adding in without any commentary at all.

 

[Mad_Jack]

Or adopted kid of the original NPC.

Well, there is that classic cartoon about slaying the dragon...

 

[Shiroiken]

I’m very curious to see what they do with the demographics and what the reaction to that will be, since being humanocentric is one of the first things I always hear Greyhawk fans mention about it, along with that it’s “sword and sorcery,” that it’s “medieval to FR’s Renaissance,” and that it features all the most famous named characters.

I think the best way is to assume that the new races simply don't exist in "significant" numbers. There's only 1 elven nation, Celene, plus the demi-human Ulek states, all of which have more humans living in them than demi-humans (according to the original boxed set). I would guess that non-humans make up about 10% of the population of the "civilized" nations, and the new races would simply fit into that percentage. This keeps Greyhawk as humanocentric and incorporates the new races into the game as equals to the old races.

 

[Parmandur]

I think the best way is to assume that the new races simply don't exist in "significant" numbers. There's only 1 elven nation, Celene, plus the demi-human Ulek states, all of which have more humans living in them than demi-humans (according to the original boxed set). I would guess that non-humans make up about 10% of the population of the "civilized" nations, and the new races would simply fit into that percentage. This keeps Greyhawk as humanocentric and incorporates the new races into the game as equals to the old races.

I mean, technically there are 3 or 4 Elven nations (depending on what the heck is happening in the Valley of the Mage), but I both doubt WotC cares about keeping Greyhawk "humanocentric", or in creating ethnostates for all the playable Species. They will probably all just be depicted as present all around uncontroversely.

 

[Parmandur]

I think the best way is to assume that the new races simply don't exist in "significant" numbers. There's only 1 elven nation, Celene, plus the demi-human Ulek states, all of which have more humans living in them than demi-humans (according to the original boxed set). I would guess that non-humans make up about 10% of the population of the "civilized" nations, and the new races would simply fit into that percentage. This keeps Greyhawk as humanocentric and incorporates the new races into the game as equals to the old races.

One of the few pieces of Settinf art we have from previews of the DMG, for example, ia the Silver Dragon Inn from the Free City of Greyhawk, with Orcs, Tieflings, and Drsgonborn mixed in:

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I mean, technically there are 3 or 4 Elven nations (depending on what the heck is happening in the Valley of the Mage), but I both doubt WotC cares about keeping Greyhawk "humanocentric", or in creating ethnostates for all the playable Species. They will probably all just be depicted as present all around uncontroversely.

I am going to push back on this, slightly, and agree with @Shiroiken above.

I think people misunderstand what is meant when Greyhawk is referred to as "humanocentric." It does not mean that there are only humans, of course. There are, and have always been, non-humans in Greyhawk!

Instead, what the phrase means is that Greyhawk is a setting* where humans are the dominant political force, and while there are non-humans, most of them exist in much smaller quantities than do the humans, who have created and who run almost every single country, and most countries have small numbers of non-humans.

I previously went through the '83 box set and explained why it was humanocentric (while also saying that the bizarre opposition of some people to, inter alia, Dragonborn was silly) here:

D&D General - Moar Greyhawk: Anthropocentrism and Humanity in Greyhawk

This post is related to another post I just wrote, about Greyhawk, here: https://www.enworld.org/threads/for-the-love-of-greyhawk-why-people-still-fight-to-preserve-greyhawk.674292/ After some time in the comments, a poster responded to a list of non-exclusive factors I wrote about Greyhawk...

www.enworld.org

As I noted in that thread, looking at the demographics is enlightening. Many countries have little-to-no non-human (well, that was referring to demi-human back, aka, playable non-human) populations- less than the 2000 trigger. The entire number of them pales in comparison to just the human population of the Great Kingdom.

In terms of numbers and politics, humanity dominates Greyhawk. That doesn't mean that there aren't dragonborn and tortles around, just that they are far fewer in number.




*By "Greyhawk" I mean the known area of Greyhawk as depicted on the map originally made by Darlene and now updated and provided in the DMG. AKA, the eastern continent of Oerik, otherwise called the Flanaess. Your table is welcome to make the rest of the world (Oerth) however you want!

 

[Parmandur]

I am going to push back on this, slightly, and agree with @Shiroiken above.

I think people misunderstand what is meant when Greyhawk is referred to as "humanocentric." It does not mean that there are only humans, of course. There are, and have always been, non-humans in Greyhawk!

Instead, what the phrase means is that Greyhawk is a setting* where humans are the dominant political force, and while there are non-humans, most of them exist in much smaller quantities than do the humans, who have created and who run almost every single country, and most countries have small numbers of non-humans.

I previously went through the '83 box set and explained why it was humanocentric (while also saying that the bizarre opposition of some people to, inter alia, Dragonborn was silly) here:

D&D General - Moar Greyhawk: Anthropocentrism and Humanity in Greyhawk

This post is related to another post I just wrote, about Greyhawk, here: https://www.enworld.org/threads/for-the-love-of-greyhawk-why-people-still-fight-to-preserve-greyhawk.674292/ After some time in the comments, a poster responded to a list of non-exclusive factors I wrote about Greyhawk...

www.enworld.org

As I noted in that thread, looking at the demographics is enlightening. Many countries have little-to-no non-human (well, that was referring to demi-human back, aka, playable non-human) populations- less than the 2000 trigger. The entire number of them pales in comparison to just the human population of the Great Kingdom.

In terms of numbers and politics, humanity dominates Greyhawk. That doesn't mean that there aren't dragonborn and tortles around, just that they are far fewer in number.




*By "Greyhawk" I mean the known area of Greyhawk as depicted on the map originally made by Darlene and now updated and provided in the DMG. AKA, the eastern continent of Oerik, otherwise called the Flanaess. Your table is welcome to make the rest of the world (Oerth) however you want!

I won't disagree that is happening in the original box set...but I don't expect that either preserving that or hamfistedly adding something like "Goliathheim, home of the Goliaths" are huge priorities for WotC. I actually do not expect that detailed demographics, even the high level type from the GH Folio/Box let alone the finely detailed 3E approach, will come up.

 

[Zaukrie]

This looks great. The rage hate from certain people is going to be off the charts....

 

[Charlaquin]

I won't disagree that is happening in the original box set...but I don't expect that either preserving that or hamfistedly adding something like "Goliathheim, home of the Goliaths" are huge priorities for WotC. I actually do not expect that detailed demographics, even the high level type from the GH Folio/Box let alone the finely detailed 3E approach, will come up.

Yeah, I doubt demographics will really be discussed much, if at all. But I am interested to see if they address the introduction of species that didn’t exist in D&D in 1983, and what the fan reaction will be to whatever they do or don’t say on the matter.