D&D (2024) Greyhawk- New Map, Discussion of Changes

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah, I doubt demographics will really be discussed much, if at all. But I am interested to see if they address the introduction of species that didn’t exist in D&D in 1983, and what the fan reaction will be to whatever they do or don’t say on the matter.

I predict that they will say absolutely nothing, as nothing good can be gained from saying much. Just have them there without making a big deal about it.

Grognard purists will complain anyway, but they won't have a statement to latch on to.
Every one else won't notice and won't care.

Personally, I like that Greyhawk is humanocentric, but that doesn't mean that there aren't all sorts of other non-humans.


I do think that two additional issues, which are unaddressed, are the Drow in Greyhawk, and Orcs (etc.) in Greyhawk. Both of them have been ... let's say ... traditionally coded.

I don't have any particular response to that, as it's something I've been pondering, and I'm wondering what (if anything) they will say about the issue.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Yeah, I doubt demographics will really be discussed much, if at all. But I am interested to see if they address the introduction of species that didn’t exist in D&D in 1983, and what the fan reaction will be to whatever they do or don’t say on the matter.

I don't really think it's needed, most of the existing stuff didn't get introductions or homelands in the original material either.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I predict that they will say absolutely nothing, as nothing good can be gained from saying much. Just have them there without making a big deal about it.

Grognard purists will complain anyway, but they won't have a statement to latch on to.
Every one else won't notice and won't care.

Personally, I like that Greyhawk is humanocentric, but that doesn't mean that there aren't all sorts of other non-humans.


I do think that two additional issues, which are unaddressed, are the Drow in Greyhawk, and Orcs (etc.) in Greyhawk. Both of them have been ... let's say ... traditionally coded.

I don't have any particular response to that, as it's something I've been pondering, and I'm wondering what (if anything) they will say about the issue.

Orcs were explicitly welcome in the Free City of Greyhawk at the very least.

 

[Parmandur]

I do think that two additional issues, which are unaddressed, are the Drow in Greyhawk, and Orcs (etc.) in Greyhawk. Both of them have been ... let's say ... traditionally coded.

I don't have any particular response to that, as it's something I've been pondering, and I'm wondering what (if anything) they will say about the issue.

Now, this I do expect may need to be addressed in some way, and not just in Greyhawk.

As to the Orcs...well, I could see the Pomarj and Bone March situations being made a little more...nuanced? I've always found it interesting that the text of the in-world author is very Doom and gloom about the Orc takeovers of those regions, but...the port cities are still operational under Orc control. Might be a little more shades of grey going on there.

For the Drow...that's a bigger job, but doable.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Orcs were explicitly welcome in the Free City of Greyhawk at the very least.

Well, I don't view anything as canonical after 1983, but that said, the 1983 demographics supports this (kinda).

There are two relevant issues- first is the demographic information about Greyhawk. for humanoids* says that there are some humanoids.

This may mean "cool cool, do what you want." This would be supported by other entries for humanoids that are either applicable to evil countries (Horned Society, Bone March, etc.), countries that are dominated by humanoids (Pomarj) or countries that explicitly note that the presence of humanoids is for raiders only (Highfolk) or states that they are at the margins (Cruski/Ice Barbarians state that they are in the mountains). Further, the free city of Irongate has no humanoids.

OTOH, most "human" kingdoms have between few or some, so it might be referring to those outside of human control.


ON THE THIRD HAND, Greyhawk is the most eccentric and cosmopolitan city in Eastern Oerth, so why not? Also also, in the end, who cares? The point of Greyhawk is to make it your own.




*I use the terms originally employed when talkin' GH demographics. Demi-humans meant "playable non-human races" that are "normally not hostile to humans." Humanoids is orcs, kobolds, goblins and others that are "at odds with humanity."

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

As to the Orcs...well, I could see the Pomarj and Bone March situations being made a little more...nuanced? I've always found it interesting that the text of the in-world author is very Doom and gloom about the Orc takeovers of those regions, but...the port cities are still operational under Orc control. Might be a little more shades of grey going on there.

For the Drow...that's a bigger job, but doable.

You can always blame the unreliable narrator.
-Charles Kinbote

I think that the in-world author probably had ... wait for it .... a humanocentric view of the history of Greyhawk, so it would make sense to separate the world from his P.O.V. into "humans and their allies," and "baddies who hate all the good stuff humans do." Which certainly presents a meta-textual gloss that can be used. I think it was Richard Matheson who first said, "Wait, are we the baddies?"

But I have to admit, you'll have to pry the villainous Drow of Greyhawk from my cold, dead hands. Look, it's not like I'm not self-aware about some of the issues in that ....

But the Greyhawk Drow, like the Scarlet Bro.... Order, just make such deliciously good antagonists.

 

[Parmandur]

You can always blame the unreliable narrator.
-Charles Kinbote

I think that the in-world author probably had ... wait for it .... a humanocentric view of the history of Greyhawk, so it would make sense to separate the world from his P.O.V. into "humans and their allies," and "baddies who hate all the good stuff humans do." Which certainly presents a meta-textual gloss that can be used. I think it was Richard Matheson who first said, "Wait, are we the baddies?"

But I have to admit, you'll have to pry the villainous Drow of Greyhawk from my cold, dead hands. Look, it's not like I'm not self-aware about some of the issues in that ....

But the Greyhawk Drow, like the Scarlet Bro.... Order, just make such deliciously good antagonists.

I mean, I think you can have villainous Lollth/Elemental Evil Drow cultists while still making space for neutral or even good Drow, same as having Iuz doesn'tmean all Demonic Tieflings have to be Chaotic Evil...and given that Drow are a PC option, I do think theybwill do...something...and the DMG seems a good place to try something out.

 

[Voadam]

World of Greyhawk 1983 1e Boxed Set:

Page 12:

Greyhawk is the classic setting large free city.

page 14:

"In the central region of the Flanaess, from western Urnst Duchy to Geoff, there is little heed paid to either skin color or racial type, whether human or demi-human (or even humanoid, in some places)."

Page 18:

Page 23:

So about 5-10% Demi-Humans, and about 5-10% Humanoids in Greyhawk with the humanoids having free access. In default 1e.

 

[Staffan]

But I have to admit, you'll have to pry the villainous Drow of Greyhawk from my cold, dead hands. Look, it's not like I'm not self-aware about some of the issues in that ....

But the Greyhawk Drow, like the Scarlet Bro.... Order, just make such deliciously good antagonists.

There was a thing a few years back on the Wizards website (though I can't find it at the moment, because that site is bad and its designers should feel bad) about different drow cultures in FR. Something along the lines of "Sure, these drow here in Menzoberranzan are mainly corrupt Lolth cultists, but you have some other drow cultures over here and here who aren't." You could easily do a similar thing, with Erelhei-Cinlu replacing Menzo.

 

[Yaarel]

@Snarf Zagyg

Re the Drow in Flanaess, just make it regional. There is a cluster of Drow cities where the "Lolth faction" has taken control. But elsewhere, the Drow want nothing to do with Lolth.