Are you excited about the Forgotten Realms setting changes?

[Najo]

I try, but then a daggit comes rolling in and my world turns upside down!

Then the new Battlestar Galactica came along and completely erased athe old show, and all was good. Near perfect show

 

[Wormwood]

Then the new Battlestar Galactica came along and completely erased athe old show, and all was good. Near perfect show

Exactly. 4e is the Ron Moore edition of the D&D.

And yeah, I'm really curious to see what they come up with.

 

[Shazman]

Read my post above on barriers to entry. That is why WOTC is doing much of this as it let's new blood into the hobby easier. If new blood doesn;t come in, then our beloved hobby dies overtime through attrition.

As for 4e D&D, from everything I've seen so far in the preview books, heard from inside the industry and the tidbits online, they are heading the right direction. Only complaint people might have is the Fluff named game mechanics (see debates from before about Golden Wyvern Adept). Over a third of the mechanics is named like this now. Some DMs will find this frustrating potentially. Otherwise, everything I've heard makes 4e sound incredible to run and play. Read the worlds and monsters book for a 4e DM perspective.

As for the Realms, it will depend on how true to the setting's feel they stay. If the Realms turns into the Road Warrior, there might be a problem. Reminds of the part in Fight Club when Ed Norton beat the hell out of the blonde guy, and then stated that he wanted to destroy something beautiful. I think this is how some of the realms fans are feeling right now.

One other point, I think some of the Points of Light/ Surrounding Darkness is what they are trying to put back into the realms. This would require "destroying/ ruining" places. The trade off is a sense of mystery and exploration of the unknown. So, I guess we will see.

So they may be removing some perceived (and I believe entirely fictional) barriers to entry. How does that make a 13 year old WOW addict (apparently their target audience for 4E) 1) even know that D&D exists or has a brand new edition aimed at him 2 )want to play D&D instead of WOW 3) know of the Forgotten Realms and 4) realize that any "barriers" to him playing Forgotten Realms are now gone. Like I said. They are nuking the Realms and alienating existing customers to cater to people that don't know of or care about their product. What are they doing get these kids to even know what D&D is?

 

[Rel]

So they may be removing some perceived (and I believe entirely fictional) barriers to entry. How does that make a 13 year old WOW addict (apparently their target audience for 4E) 1) even know that D&D exists or has a brand new edition aimed at him 2 )want to play D&D instead of WOW 3) know of the Forgotten Realms and 4) realize that any "barriers" to him playing Forgotten Realms are now gone. Like I said. They are nuking the Realms and alienating existing customers to cater to people that don't know of or care about their product. What are they doing get these kids to even know what D&D is?

Bolding mine.

I wonder if the folks here will eventually get that making such statements pretty much ends all productive discourse on the topic at hand.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So they may be removing some perceived (and I believe entirely fictional) barriers to entry. How does that make a 13 year old WOW addict (apparently their target audience for 4E) 1) even know that D&D exists or has a brand new edition aimed at him 2 )want to play D&D instead of WOW 3) know of the Forgotten Realms and 4) realize that any "barriers" to him playing Forgotten Realms are now gone. Like I said. They are nuking the Realms and alienating existing customers to cater to people that don't know of or care about their product. What are they doing get these kids to even know what D&D is?

Commercials?

And you know, personally, I don't care about 13 year old WoW addicts, but like 4E and suddenly feel interested in actually running a FR game. And I also like 4E. So I think the target audience is a little bit broader than you like us to insult... believe.

PS:
For determining the possible target audience:
I am not 13 years old. I am 28. I have studied computer sciences are now working as a software developer. I started role-playing back in the year 2000, playing Shadowrun 3rd edition. Switching to D&D was heard as first, but in the end, I grew to love it (or at least 3rd edition. I don't think I'd ever play AD&D or older editions). I also liked playing Torg and Warhammer.
I enjoyed compuer games like Zack McCracken, LHX, TFX, Diablo 2, Jagged Alliance 2, Trackmania Sunrise, Temple of Elemental Evil, Neverwinter Nights and Command & Conquer. I didn't enjoy WoW. It was only a test account, but 1-2 hours of play convinced that I just don't have the time for the slow advancement WoW provides...

 

[Shazman]

Commercials?

And you know, personally, I don't care about 13 year old WoW addicts, but like 4E and suddenly feel interested in actually running a FR game. And I also like 4E. So I think the target audience is a little bit broader than you like us to insult... believe.

PS:
For determining the possible target audience:
I am not 13 years old. I am 28. I have studied computer sciences are now working as a software developer. I started role-playing back in the year 2000, playing Shadowrun 3rd edition. Switching to D&D was heard as first, but in the end, I grew to love it (or at least 3rd edition. I don't think I'd ever play AD&D or older editions). I also liked playing Torg and Warhammer.
I enjoyed compuer games like Zack McCracken, LHX, TFX, Diablo 2, Jagged Alliance 2, Trackmania Sunrise, Temple of Elemental Evil, Neverwinter Nights and Command & Conquer. I didn't enjoy WoW. It was only a test account, but 1-2 hours of play convinced that I just don't have the time for the slow advancement WoW provides...

What commercials? The only commercials I have seen even mentioning D&D or roleplaying games in general do not portray it in a positive light.

 

[Najo]

So they may be removing some perceived (and I believe entirely fictional) barriers to entry. How does that make a 13 year old WOW addict (apparently their target audience for 4E) 1) even know that D&D exists or has a brand new edition aimed at him 2 )want to play D&D instead of WOW 3) know of the Forgotten Realms and 4) realize that any "barriers" to him playing Forgotten Realms are now gone. Like I said. They are nuking the Realms and alienating existing customers to cater to people that don't know of or care about their product. What are they doing get these kids to even know what D&D is?

Ok, lets take that one step of a time and paint the big picture.

1) The first barrier to entry is awareness of the potential players of what D&D is, this spreads best through word of mouth and actually playing.

2) To get those people to play, you have to simplfy complicated areas of the game (grappling, choosing spells, prestige classes and planning character builds, ECL, templates, pricing magic items, pages of rules to get started). Many gamers think this is what adds depth to a game, and they don't understand why that stuff isn't easy for casual players. Simplfying and streamline doesn't have to me dumbing it down. It just means you present the stuff to get started as easy to do, then allow the game to become more and more complicated as you play and master it. Still allow advanced players to make fun builds, complicated choices and have lots of tactical options. But, new players should be able to look at their character sheet, build a character with out help and then get the basic mechanics after being told once.

3) The game has to become viral. This means it spreads naturally and contasgiously. So D&D needs to be something that a friend hears about and then they can hop in to a session and get it, and go play on their own. The DDI, the new rules, and any marketing plans for 4e will head this direction. I even bet we will see free trial DDI accounts with a free player's handbook that gives you 15 days or a month free. The worldwide online tables and quickplay rules in Keep on the Shadowfell are examples of this too.

4) The game needs many kinds of fun for all player types! It needs to also have strengths over the video games that only good roleplaying experiences can provide, and that stuff needs to come out naturally. Social game play, backgrounds and storylines attached to characters, roleplaying quests having rules, social encounters, the story attached to rules and DMs being able to easily set up games and play are all places that video games can not touch easily. Roleplaying excels here.

5) It needs to easily allow younger players in without alienating current players. This is something killing RPGS. Established groups rarely let the kid brother, or some teen who wants to play join. That is why the RPG demographic is aging. Pre-teen and teens are not being exposed to the game like the 30 somethings were. They have other distractions, like WOW. This is causing attrition and inbreeding to the roleplaying market. Every market needs new blood to keep it healthy and flushed with cash. The online aspects of 4e and its quick and fun play style is trying to correct that.

6) As for the Realms, the Realms gets the position as the new RPGA official world and it is going to the first campaign launched for 4e. That means it is the first official world (with history, maps, points of interest) to explore. The Realms already has issues for established players getting into, let alone new players, yet the novels make the New York Times bestseller list. Why don't the novels pull people back into D&D? One of the reasons is the barriers to entry.

So this leads to those "fictional" barriers to entry. Doing all of these things above, the channels for new players being delievered into D&D 4e and up to Forgotten Realms doorstep are much more open. You will have new people looking at the Realms. In the current state, DMs and players have stated they don't play it because it is to hard to find a place to start and to take in all of the history and lore. So, how are those barrier ficitional then? They might not be to you, but they are for a very large number of established D&D players and for all of the yet discovered ones too.

Hope that helps.

 

[Najo]

Commercials?

And you know, personally, I don't care about 13 year old WoW addicts, but like 4E and suddenly feel interested in actually running a FR game. And I also like 4E. So I think the target audience is a little bit broader than you like us to insult... believe.

D&D needs 13 year WOW players as much as it needs 28 year old DMs. The 13 yearold players grow up into 28 year old DMs and give D&D a broader market and a future as a product, instead of it going the way of the buggy whip.

 

[Shazman]

Ok, lets take that one step of a time and paint the big picture.

1) The first barrier to entry is awareness of the potential players of what D&D is, this spreads best through word of mouth and actually playing.

2) To get those people to play, you have to simplfy complicated areas of the game (grappling, choosing spells, prestige classes and planning character builds, ECL, templates, pricing magic items, pages of rules to get started). Many gamers think this is what adds depth to a game, and they don't understand why that stuff isn't easy for casual players. Simplfying and streamline doesn't have to me dumbing it down. It just means you present the stuff to get started as easy to do, then allow the game to become more and more complicated as you play and master it. Still allow advanced players to make fun builds, complicated choices and have lots of tactical options. But, new players should be able to look at their character sheet, build a character with out help and then get the basic mechanics after being told once.

3) The game has to become viral. This means it spreads naturally and contasgiously. So D&D needs to be something that a friend hears about and then they can hop in to a session and get it, and go play on their own. The DDI, the new rules, and any marketing plans for 4e will head this direction. I even bet we will see free trial DDI accounts with a free player's handbook that gives you 15 days or a month free. The worldwide online tables and quickplay rules in Keep on the Shadowfell are examples of this too.

4) The game needs many kinds of fun for all player types! It needs to also have strengths over the video games that only good roleplaying experiences can provide, and that stuff needs to come out naturally. Social game play, backgrounds and storylines attached to characters, roleplaying quests having rules, social encounters, the story attached to rules and DMs being able to easily set up games and play are all places that video games can not touch easily. Roleplaying excels here.

5) It needs to easily allow younger players in without alienating current players. This is something killing RPGS. Established groups rarely let the kid brother, or some teen who wants to play join. That is why the RPG demographic is aging. Pre-teen and teens are not being exposed to the game like the 30 somethings were. They have other distractions, like WOW. This is causing attrition and inbreeding to the roleplaying market. Every market needs new blood to keep it healthy and flushed with cash. The online aspects of 4e and its quick and fun play style is trying to correct that.

6) As for the Realms, the Realms gets the position as the new RPGA official world and it is going to the first campaign launched for 4e. That means it is the first official world (with history, maps, points of interest) to explore. The Realms already has issues for established players getting into, let alone new players, yet the novels make the New York Times bestseller list. Why don't the novels pull people back into D&D? One of the reasons is the barriers to entry.

So this leads to those "fictional" barriers to entry. Doing all of these things above, the channels for new players being delievered into D&D 4e and up to Forgotten Realms doorstep are much more open. You will have new people looking at the Realms. In the current state, DMs and players have stated they don't play it because it is to hard to find a place to start and to take in all of the history and lore. So, how are those barrier ficitional then? They might not be to you, but they are for a very large number of established D&D players and for all of the yet discovered ones too.

Hope that helps.

Those are good points. I really think that they are failing to not alienate current fans. That's a big mistake. That can really dampen the word of mouth advertising they are relying on. The changes are so drastic, that they might as well make a new campaign setting and quit supporting the Realms. The only reason they don't is because the Forgotten Realms logo is popular, and it sells products. Thats the bottom line. Who else deliberatley tries to get older customers to not buy and use their products? I just don't see nuking the Realms as a viable way to give it new life. The way they are treating long time customers and fans of the Realms, I almost wish it backfires on them just on principle. Either way, the Realms are dead to me.

 

[Zarithar]

D&D needs 13 year WOW players as much as it needs 28 year old DMs. The 13 yearold players grow up into 28 year old DMs and give D&D a broader market and a future as a product, instead of it going the way of the buggy whip.

What about 37 year old WoW players...?