Synthetik Fish said:Kilroy-
It's pretty evident that you're really biased against rogues. I don't think you're giving them their fair share.
First of all, you talk about spellcasters casting all these spells as if they're free. Especially at lower levels, spellcasters don't exactly have a ton of spells at their disposal.
I'm not biased against rogues in a roleplaying sense, some of the the characters I've gotten the most laughs out of the party with have been rogues. I'm biased against then in a power-gamey-munching sense, because even while I'm having a lot of fun with them, the rest of the party tends to get a lot more done in combat and contribute a lot more.
A couple excellent moments of roguedom, to show I'm not a mindless hater.
In the only 1st through epic game I've been in, I played a rogue with a level of barbarian and a couple levels of Iron Chef Orcish.
Good: Autofailing an impossible grapple check, but convincing the DM that "swallowed whole by dragon" meant "dragon was flat footed" and taking a full round attack, only to fail another grapple check and get coughed back up by the now fleeing dragon. Shouting "Got your kidney!" and holding it up. Better: Having the now distant dragon die the next round from repeated sneak attack damage and crash into the swamp. Shouting "Got you other kidney too!". Here was learned the important rule that with most big creatures, the safest place to be in a fight is inside them.
In a game that went from 1-14, I played a githyanki rogue/assassin.
He once went off to scout and if possible take a sleeping noble prisoner. I didn't know my new greatsword was cursed, so I wasn't expecting the DM to ask me to roll greatsword powerattacking death attack damage when I tried to sap him, and the party certainly wasn't expecting the shower of blood back at camp when I quick drew the ring gate to keep the blood from making a mess.
That said, some of the comments above are off the mark.
Some people are claiming that casters don't have enough spells for utility, and others that rogues can just use scrolls and items or take caster levels for utility they lack. Depends on the campaign, but if the caster can't afford the spells or items,the rogue almost certainly can't either.
JamesDJarvis said:
Yes, I'm sure whoever wrote that ambush in the Shackled City adventure path was fresh off the boat that day.
Any sane MT player (me, in this case) knows to use the wand of silence on an object, not a character, so you can toss it away if you need to make noise. (It's even on a tanglefoot bag, in case we run into casters. If you have a rogue, put it on a locking garotte instead.) That plus a Metamagic Rod of Silent Spell doesn't make for much of a risk when you know where the guards are. It doesn't even extend through doors. What can a rogue do to help the plate classes sneak around, other than a +2 aid other bonus? Hiding someone else is an Epic Hide use(-30), and they still can't leave concealment, while Invisibility is a 150 gp potion that we seem to find in droves. We got two Silent Spell rods from published module NPCs who ambushed us using them, so it seems like a pretty standard tactic. Travelling silenced also means that you can use the adamantine canopener...er...greatsword to open doors in a single round, without fail, 100% silently, and have a guy with armor and an adamantine greatsword in front instead of a rogue with a lockpick.
JamesDJarvis said:
The rest of party sat at camp while the cleric watched through Chain of Eyes because the ninja was doing what rogue types do best - sneak, search, and cover in fear, and the non-ninjas all sat there for several hours, real and game time, while the (Dark Stalker enhanced, replacing a similar house rule feat) ninja snuck through the entire dungeon, searched every room, every door, every trap, found all the treasure, listened to all the boxed text and watched all the NPCs. Later, at the ninja's urging, we used magic to sneak the rest of the party into the BBEG's bedroom to ambush them when they got back from the big meeting of bad guys that was going on in the dungeon. After a few (in game only, whew) hours of waiting, we discovered that the bad guy and all the monsters had left for somewhere else after the meeting. Apparently, the module was written assuming that the PCs just bust in and kill everything. By not doing so, we managed to screw it up, miss a ton of xp and loot, and did not get to roll a non-ninja die that entire game.
No one, including the ninja's player, was happy with this session, and he is still deeply unhappy with his character because this was the only situation in the game where his character got to shine.
Really, the only indispensible thing that the ninja brings to the party that noone else could, or that previous rogues brought to theirs, is Search. Sadly, a character who takes a level or two of rogue and then the rest in wizard still gets character level+3 max ranks in Search, probably has a higher int, and ends up with nearly full caster progression and slightly lower skills.
Nail said:
How much less effective would a Rog2/Frt 16 have been? Same Search skill for traps, silenced adamantine greatsword for locks, fighter goodness in melee? How about a rog1/cleric 17? Same important skills, +15 from Divine Insight for the hard checks over what the rogue would have, better saves, BAB and armor, plus casts Miracle or Etherealness in a pinch for those really stuck doors? An 18th level rogue is powerful, yes, but an 18th level caster can do _horrible_ things. +8d6 sneak attack pales when the wizard and cleric open up the big fight with a Chain Greater Dispel Magic, a Heirophant Reach Divine Metamagic Quickened Rod Chained Twin Harm and an Assay Resistanced Sudden Maximized Rod Empowered Horrid Wilting for over 6,000 points of damage in the first round (Fort half, good luck). That's what fights are like in my group at 18th level. That's what I mean when I say casters scale better with more books than rogues do.
Someone who only takes a level of rogue isn't giving up their most important rogue skills or trapfinding, they're giving up some sneak attack and the 5th-8th best skills a rogue has. Spells, planning or sheer brute force can usually replace someone's 5th-8th best skills, and sneak attack doesn't scale for damage at anything like the rate spells do. Sure, they can do it all day, but a rogue who trys to fight all day usually has other problems anyway.
Rogues don't scale as well as other classes, outside fairly narrow situations. They don't scale vertically because they're too front loaded. A single level gets you the only ability that really can't be replicated by another class without a 24k custom magic item. They don't scale horizontally because as more books come out, casters can shell out $25 for another book of spells and vastly expand their flexibility and power, but a rogue is stuck with the same 8 skills for life.
Rogues start out slightly better than most other classes at a few specific skills, but they really don't ever gain any flexibility after that if they want to maintain their skills, and caster classes quickly start to gain flexibility. When you start adding in new books of spells for casters that add spell versitility at no cost, rogues really get the shaft. It would be more balanced if rogues got more diverse and powerful skills as they go up in levels like casters get more spells, but they don't. When a Jack of all Trades cleric comes along with Divine Insight giving a +15 on every important skill check, plus better armor, weapons, attacks, saves and full spells, having those 6 extra skills known and a few dice of sneak attack doesn't really count for much often enough to matter.
I stand by my opinion that the rogue is one of the weakest of the core classes. I further refine it that the only indispensable feature the class has is trapfinding, which only takes a level or a fairly cheap custom magic item to get. When you start adding in non-core books, rogue goes from being one of the weakest classes to being totally outclassed, even at their primary ability, very quickly.
Wow, I just wrote way, way too much. This is a long Everquest patch. ;-)
