D&D 5E Armor in Next

I'd like to see all tiers and varieties of armor be somewhat viable if one is wiling to make tradeoffs, rather than having all armor being a run to mithral chain shirts and adamantine plate armor. The challenge is making the medium armors stay viable for some reason other than just purchase cost.

I'd love to see characters be able to stick with scale or chain for positive reasons. That may take reducing the total benefit of light armor, and reducing the Dex benefit of heavy armor, so medium is a viable "balanced" choice for some character classes.
 

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Crazy Jerome

First Post
Wacky thought out of left field. If they shifted the three groups of armor slightly, would it be more acceptable to many people to finesse the issues? Something like:
  • Light armor -- cloth, padded, wicker, culminating in plain leather.
  • Medium armor - studded leather, ring mail (which is really just a slightly more metallic form of studded), hide armor, chain shirts, etc.
  • Heavy armor - heavy chain, plate, banded, scale, etc.
I realize that just about every bit of that has been done in one edition or another, but the other key change to go with it is that a lot of the users of "light" armor in prior version would move up to medium. Rogues, ranger, barbarians, etc. would be solidly in medium, instead of on the edge, though perhaps rogues could be considered to straddle the gap.

Then, you let wizards and other such characters get light armor proficiency for free--or rather, every adventurer does. But then you make upgrading proficiency cost more than a feat, so that a rogue or ranger having medium or a fighter or paladin having heavy is a real perk.

Now, you don't need to be so strict with Dex mods. Let the Dex mod always stack, fully. Because of those who we think of as wearing armor, we are back to two realistic categories (medium and heavy instead of light and heavy). Light is flat inferior to medium, but that's ok. It's still a small amount of AC adjustment that can be readily gained for those that have nothing better. Finally, heavy can have the modest Speed penalty (or similar), in return for its better AC than medium.

I realize that's mostly all just semantics, and moving rogues and similar characters up into the "medium" category, but it does cover a wider range somewhat fairly. It also gives those on the lower end a bit of help. I thought the 11 AC of the playtest wizard was just a hair on the low side. :D
 

The primary issues for me:

1. Heavier armor requires additional proficiencies. These proficiencies mean little unless those categories of armor are straight up superior--not just for the classes that get those proficiencies, but for anyone.
2. Each and every type of armor (not just category) has to be viable for the entire campaign. Otherwise characters are forced to abandon the armors that fit their style and aesthetic sense in order to keep up statistically. It's the old pre-3e "every warrior uses a longsword or a greatsword" situation.
3. Dexterity bonus cannot over-ride the concerns just listed. For instance, if heavy armor is only better for someone with no Dex bonus, then again, that heavy armor proficiency means absolutely squat, since all it does is allow a fighter to use the only reasonable choice of armor for them, assuming they take Dex as a dump stat. If they don't dump Dex, they will wear a lighter armor, and hence not benefit from their proficiency.
4. Rules need to stay true to the traditional feel of D&D armor and weapons, as much as is possible, though this is subordinate to the above greater issues.

Now, in reverse order, some considerations:
a) There shouldn't be things like DR for standard mundane armors, because no prior edition has had that (adamantine isn't a "standard" armor, and so such exceptions are possibilities). I'm not singling out DR; that's just the one that comes to mind.
b) Armors do not need to remain in categories of light, medium, heavy, or even in categories at all, since that was introduced in 3e and can be abandoned if there is a better route.
c) If having a Dex bonus essentially means that you have equal AC to a higher category, then you actually are better off, not equal, because higher categories penalize mobility. A possibility for dealing with this is to allow full Dex bonus for *all* armors. They only started limiting it in 3e, so it can be jettisoned. The complaints that I anticipate are "why wouldn't everyone take high Dex?" and "what reason would you ever have to wear lighter armor?" Valid complaints on first glance, but it breaks apart when examined. First, you only have limited stats, and in 5e that is much truer than 3e and 4e. Sure, a fighter can max Dex and wear full plate, but then he's going to have to skimp on other things he might need in order to be an AC tank. I think that's a perfectly valid option. Keeping a Strength requirement to wear heavier armor is a possibility to avoid the above situation, and it might also help in other areas.
d) Heavier armors do and should penalize you in ways other than AC. You lose speed and mobility. I think, if needed, those penalties ought to be increased if any balance is needed. Those very considerations of mobility should be what makes wearing lighter armors appealing to some fighters. The standard fighter is going to wear the heaviest armor. A fighter customized for speed and mobility might choose to wear medium armor, or even light armor if he was highly customized, but that would be rare.
e) The only way for point 2 to happen is to make sure all of the other issues are addressed beyond just category. If there is a "best" medium armor, then even if medium armor is overall between light and heavy in effectiveness, everyone will have to upgrade to the best version as soon as possible. Take 3e as an example. I think scale armor is awesome in style. But it's straight up junk armor. It has absolutely no benefit over a breastplate other than being slightly cheaper (only an issue at level 1). The classicly stylish chainmail suffers a similar complete lack of usefulness. I think heavier armors ought to be more expensive, and you might not be able to buy the heaviest armor at first level (just like you can't necessarily afford both an exotic melee weapon and an exotic ranged weapon to start). But by 2nd (or 3rd at the outside edge) you can afford whatever mundane armor you want. This solves the issue of world verisimilitude, since armies and bandits still wear cheaper and less protective (but more maneuverable) armor.
f) Despite that, it's also possible to have one cheap, purely inferior type of armor at the light category for such purposes, just like club is for weapons. g) A possibility is to only have 3 or so types of armor, which are stylistically subdivided as needed. For instance, one line of the armor chart says "Light (leather, studded leather, chain shirt)" providing a set of statistics that applies to all of them. You have a list of which armors are in which category, and can choose the style you like. Then, an advanced module would make distinctions (that keep them on par) for those who prefer to differentiate more. An example might be to make some armors get a +1 vs one type of damage and a -1 vs another. A chain armor might get +1 vs piercing and -1 vs bludgeoning. Mobility adjustments are also possible.
h) An alternate possiblity would be to ditch the traditional categories, and have say, 5 types of armor (each including multiple "styles" as described above.) Different classes can wear armor up to a specified category. Much like 4e, but jettisoning the "light/heavy" layer.
i) Does the fighter wear "the best" armor (and by that, I'm just going to go with "provides the best AC", because obviously we have to decrease mobility in it), or does he just have to pay more to have the same AC and less mobility than the lightly armored rogue? A character in light armor should never exceed the AC of someone in heavy (making them better off, because of mobility), and should only have a chance of equaling it if they have a Dex of *at least* 18. I'd say not even then.
j) We could always ditch armor proficiencies entirely (it was introduced in 3e) and just have class abilities and other things that make wearing different types of armor more viable. For instance, if rogue-ish abilities are penalized in armor above light, guess who won't use it? Same with barbarians and rangers in medium, etc. This honestly will accomplish most of what needs to be done as far as channeling classes into the types of armor they are expected to be in, while still allowing a mobility specialized fighter a valid choice of wearing an armor type other than heavy.

I'm going to here say that I acknowledge these considerations are based on both gamist and narrativist styles. And here's the kicker: I'm actually a simulationist. I'm just not so much of a simulationist that I want characters statistically gimped if they pick an armor that they think looks cool (narrativist), or that should, based on paying for it with class/proficiencies provide better AC (gamist.)

Simply fix armor how weapons were fixed in 3e and 4e.

If I could get one message directly to the developers at WotC it would be this specific posting right here, right now.
 

Paraxis

Explorer
IMHO it should be something like this.


Light Armor penalty to strength and dexterity based skills -0, no speed penalty

type 1 armor +1 max dex +6
type 2 armor +2 max dex +5
type 3 armor +3 max dex +4

Medium Armor penalty to strength and dexterity based skills -2, - 5 feet of speed

type 4 armor +4 max dex +4
type 5 armor +5 max dex +3
type 6 armor +6 max dex +2

Heavy Armor penalty to strength and dexterity based skills -4, -10 feet of speed

type 7 armor +7 max dex +2
type 8 armor +8 max dex +1
type 9 armor +9 max dex +0

This way each tier of light, medium, heavy has a max total of only one higher then the previous something that might be worth a feat for the proficiency but each armor is different and all types would be used. I left the descriptive text of the type blank so that it doesn't matter from what culture or if you are using piece mail.

Have special materials modify the armor similar to 3.5/pathfinder, and make some feats that only work in certain types of armor or make those types more effective to add flavor and give other reasons to use medium for instance.
 

ArmoredSaint

First Post
There shouldn't be things like DR for standard mundane armors, because no prior edition has had that...
But this is incorrect.

Mundane, non-magical Field plate and Full plate in 1st edition AD&D offered some DR in addition to their already excellent Armor Classes (and this in a game with no "Max Dex" cap). They reduced damage by 1 and 2 points (respectively) per die of damage rolled. Thus, if you were armed in Full plate, and were struck with a broadsword, which did 2d4 damage, you'd get to ignore 4 points of damage.

Pretty awesome, really; I wouldn't mind seeing something like that return...
 

Steely_Dan

First Post
Mundane, non-magical Field plate and Full plate in 1st edition AD&D offered some DR in addition to their already excellent Armor Classes (and this in a game with no "Max Dex" cap). They reduced damage by 1 and 2 points (respectively) per die of damage rolled. Thus, if you were armed in Full plate, and were struck with a broadsword, which did 2d4 damage, you'd get to ignore 4 points of damage.

Pretty awesome, really; I wouldn't mind seeing something like that return...

Oh yeah, UA, right?

I've been looking over my 1st Ed PHB, looking for thing to drop in 5th Ed, and came across weapon vs. amour modifiers (those can be fun).
 

Stalker0

Legend
Right now people can choose to wield a Halberd, or Dagger, or Rapier all for different reasons. Qualities are different; off-hand, reach, finesse, slashing, etc.

And yet the dagger is strictly an inferior weapon unless you have some class abilities that give it a benefit.
 

PinkRose

Explorer
That doesn't tell me what side of the argument you're on.
And since you are Stalker_0, I can only guess as to what your plan is.

I have absolutely no problem with a weapon being inferior, yet better with the right traits or circumstances. Why can't armour be the same?
 

Geffor

First Post
There's a lot of talk about trying to represent 'reality' in D&D armour and weapons. I wouldn't bother, if there is an abstract mechanism to approximate how long people can fight for then go for it.

Having spent a lot of time fighting my friends with a variety of weapons and wearing all sorts of armour I'll give an example. My fifteenth century Milanese plate is my 'best' armour. On a good day I can keep fighting for hours and not feel a single blow regardless of how big a dent I find afterwards. However, after a period of time I stop. Literally, I run out of puff and cannot continue fighting. At this point I could be finished off by a granny with a knitting needle. The length of this period can be affected by how well I slept, how much I drank, if I'm in a good mood etc. etc.

My fourteenth century plate is not as good. It does the same job protecting me from harm but I stop sooner. Both harnesses were at the same relative cost value for the time from which they came. Regardless of which one I'm wearing, I can be immediately incapacitated by the breaking of what is effectively a piece of string.

I don't feel that it's necessary (or possible) to try and represent the sheer number of variables involved in this sort of thing. All I want is an easily administered method of deciding when someone stops. AC and HPs have worked for me for many years without requiring me to worry about 'reality'.
 

To jump into the dagger discussion, the dagger is definitely not an inferior weapon. I don't think I've ever played a character who hasn't kept one as a backup, and I consider it just standard adventuring equipment. The fact that it can be thrown and that you can choose whether to make it do slashing or piercing is *huge*. I've had situations where I've thrown a whirling dagger(s) as a slashing weapon to fight a creature with DR Piercing, because I was wielding a short sword.

The benefit of a dagger is its extreme versatility.
@Paraxis

I like the pleasing quality of order in your version, but it still lacks a solution to many of the issues I brought up. For example, what if I'm going to wear Medium armor and have a Dexterity mod of +2, but the style of armor I want to wear is in type 4? With a Dex mod of +2, the only Medium armor worth wearing is type 6. I'd have to have a Dex mod of +4 for my chosen armor to offer me any reason to wear it other than style. You system works alright for some issues if you entirely remove types 4,5, 7, and 8.

However, then you have to deal with the bounded accuracy issue (I neglected to bring it up, but consider it issue 5). With 5e, we have to keep numbers as low as possible. So if I were using your system, here's how I would do it:

Light AC +2, Max Dex +4
Medium AC +4, Max Dex +3
Heavy AC +6, Max Dex +2

If you have a Dex bonus of less than +3, it's always better to wear Heavy armor if you have the proficiency--unless you care about issues of speed, mobility, and whatever other penalties are applied to heavy armor. But the *AC* is always better wearing the heaviest type of armor you can.

However, the problem with that is that a max Dex bonus is unwieldy. It introduces a fiddly element and penalizes one of the basic functions of Dex in a way that no other Ability is penalized. Hence, I consider Max Dex bonus to be an undesirable solution.
@AR mored Saint, Steely_Dan

I wasn't aware of that particular AD&D UA rule. In general, when I refer to what has been in an edition I refer to core. So I wouldn't count 3e UAs multitude of options, for instance. On the other hand, 1e had so few actual books, that a case can be made to giving more weight to 1e UA as part of D&D tradition.

I wouldn't be entirely opposed to giving, for instance, 1 point of DR to Medium armors and 2 points to Heavy, in light of the system being used in UA.
 

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