armor spikes

[Moon-Lancer]

so what stops a fighter from wearing a holding sword wearing gauntlets and deciding to attack with the sword on his first attack and gauntlets on his second? wielding a weapon and getting offhand attacks are completely different in my opinion. Yes when dealing with two daggers one tends to call the offhand the second dagger, and that wtc defines an offhand, but then gauntlets and spiked armor defy what a offhand really is (what hand do you use with spiked armor?) so i do not think that wielding two weapons at once has anything to do with offhand attacks. offhand attacks are just extra attacks one may take when wielding more then one weapon.

Like I said before, twf is really a mechanic to get a extra attack with a second weapon.

I think a fighter could wield 3-4 weapons all at once. A spiked shield, spiked armor, a gauntlet and a sword.

I also think that a fighter could wield a glaive and a gauntlet and threaten 10 feet and 5 feet out.

Its has cool flavor. Whats muchkin about it? what rule is being broken.

I also explained how those armor spikes are parrying attacks without yanking him all over the place in my prev post. so i guess their really wasn't an issue was their. my mistake

I really will sketch it out and post it, if its hard to visualize the shape the spikes would take after the enhancement.

 

[mvincent]

I took the 3E rules for wielding a second weapon in your off-hand to mean that wielding a second weapon will always cause your primary weapon to suffer TWF'ing penalties.

That seems like it would cause problems, since armor spikes, gauntlets, shields, etc. are usually considered 'wielded', even when it's evident that no TWF'ing penalty should be applied. Examples:
"Arrow Deflection""A shield with this ability protects the wielder from ranged attacks."
"Blinding""A shield with this ability flashes with a brilliant light up to twice per day upon command of the wielder."
"an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder"
"Winged Shield""Once per day it can be commanded to fly (as the spell), carrying the wielder"
"Holy""It bestows one negative level on any lawful creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded."
"Flaming""The fire does not harm the wielder" (i.e. someone holding a flaming weapon in the off-hand should not take damage if they to not wish to incur the -2 penalty)
etc.

The 3E clarification just happened to agree with that

But the RotG clarification (written later by the same author for 3.5 and specifically focusing on TWF'ing) does not agree with that. It seems like you may have only chosen a ruling based on it corresponding to your own preferences.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That seems like it would cause problems, since armor spikes, gauntlets, shields, etc. are usually considered 'wielded', even when it's evident that no TWF'ing penalty should be applied.

In the case of the shield special abilities, it's being wielded as a shield, not as a weapon, so it's not a second weapon wielded in the off hand... unless you're choosing to treat it as a weapon, in which case I'd apply TWF penalties.

In the case of armor spikes, I wouldn't consider them wielded unless you chose to threaten with them, in which case I'd apply TWF penalties.

-Hyp.

 

[nute]

I also think that a fighter could wield a glaive and a gauntlet and threaten 10 feet and 5 feet out.

Its has cool flavor. Whats muchkin about it? what rule is being broken.

The rule that says that most PC races only have two hands. You cannot wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. Thus, you cannot threaten in a 5' range and a 10' range, because you are either wielding the glaive OR the gauntlet, not both.

 

[Legildur]

Thanks mvincent for raising the debate on this. I'd nearly forgotten that there had been a recent thread that discussed all this (TWF penalties) pretty heavily. Maybe it would be useful for someone to link to that thread?

 

[Moon-Lancer]

The rule that says that most PC races only have two hands. You cannot wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. Thus, you cannot threaten in a 5' range and a 10' range, because you are either wielding the glaive OR the gauntlet, not both.

who says that using a two handed weapon prevents using armor spikes or guantlet? Spiked armor requres no hands to speak of. so how does one use spikes as a offhand weapon when it uses no hand?

And for the guantlet thematic problem, i think soul caliber shows that quite nicely with sigfread

 

[Diomeneus]

nightmare is god.

but on other matters, ignoring all of this TWF penalties being applied for making hte enchancement bonus go to AC....

what if the armor spikes are used in combination with fighting defensively or the total defense action?

They would not be used, simply put you would weild your armors spikes as if you were using them to deflect... therefore you should be able to get the AC bonus out of the enhancement should you not? And you aren't attacking at all so who cares about TWF penalties... combined with 5 ranks in tumble and the total defense action you could get +6 AC then + (whatever your spikes enhancement is) on top of that as well... assuming +3 shouldn't be too hard.

So should I not be able to use my armor spikes and the total defense action to increase my AC by 9 for one round or more? It would be very useful for tanking or simply deciding that running through the enemies to your destination might be fun. both defending and defense action happen before the rest of your turn and apply to all AoO in that round

 

[nute]

who says that using a two handed weapon prevents using armor spikes or guantlet? Spiked armor requres no hands to speak of. so how does one use spikes as a offhand weapon when it uses no hand?

And for the guantlet thematic problem, i think soul caliber shows that quite nicely with sigfread

I seem to be missing the "Soul Caliber" chapter in my PHB. What I *do* have is the Combat section that states that if you use a second weapon to attack beyond your normal sequence of iterative attacks, that counts as two-weapon fighting. If you use ANYTHING in an offensive combat action: natural attack, unarmed attack, improvised weapon, shield bash, armor spikes, your great-aunt Jimmy Jack Jo Jenny duct-taped to a dire flail - it counts as an attack.

You can attack with a spiked gauntlet and a glaive in the same round, but you cannot threaten with both, because both cannot be prepped for attack at the same time. If you have both hands on the glaive, you cannot attack with the gauntlet because that hand is busy holding the glaive. If you release your hold on the glaive to attack with the gauntlet, you would have to re-ready the glaive before you can threaten anything with it. Dropping or un-readying a weapon is a free action. Assuming you have Quick Draw, readying a weapon is a free action. Free actions can only be done on your turn, whereas by definition AoOs are done on the enemy's turn, when you cannot make a free action. Thus, glaive OR gauntlet can threaten, but never both. QED.

Armor spikes, however, fall into the same category as a gauntlet. If you choose to use them offensively to attack an opponent (not as part of a grapple), they count as a light martial weapon.

The Defending ability specifically states:

As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

Thus, you must be using the weapon to allocate the Defending bonus to AC. If you are using the weapon (armor spikes), that means you're doing a combat action with it. So to gain that bonus, you *must* use it in some manner.

I would say that the Total Defense action is a combat action, therefore the appropriate Defending bonus would apply. However, if someone wanted to use the AC bonus from their Defending armor spikes during a round in which they attack, they must make an attack with those armor spikes, as per the definition of the Defending ability.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

you base your entire argument on that you cant use both at the same time, but then source defending and point to the first part of your argument that has no validity in terms of the rules.

you in fact show that twf is only to get an extra attack with a second weapon.

"the Combat section that states that if you use a second weapon to attack beyond your normal sequence of iterative attacks, that counts as two-weapon fighting."

So what if I dont want the extra attack, am i still twf?

What in the rules says you cannot use a glaive and spiked armor as apart of your iterative attacks? What part of the rules talk about how to ready a weapon to do stuff with that weapon? Holding the weapon usaly is sufficient, but you dont hold a gauntlet or armor spikes. In the armor spikes section it says this (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

another offhand attack it says. if we are only using iterative attacks, then their is no offhand attack.


again, if you can cast spells with a two handed weapon, then you can surly take your hand off the weapon for a moment to attack with a spell, so whats limiting you to make an extra iterative attack?

"I seem to be missing the "Soul Caliber" chapter in my PHB."

you dont use motion video to influence your idea of combat? surly you jest. You have not been influenced by modern media in d&d thematics? I hope for your sake that you get out more, the art in the d&d books is stifling to say the least. Im sure even you have been influenced by something in lord of the rings. what ha sent? You assume that because i mention a particular animation that it must correspond to some rule or what have you. No this is not the case. But thematics or cinematics should be used when no apparent rules exist in such a case as this. You will not beable to find a rules the proves me wrong, yet i do not think that I could fully support my view with the rules as well. But i can proved much circumstantial evidenced based on what d&d stats about offhands and wielding weapons. You assume that there is some action that is requred to switch between weapons. This is a very specific citation of how the rules work. Were is this located?

Being a student in animation, Im going to usaly default on the side with the most affluent combat gestures, rather then stiff on off combat.

 

[Bayushi Seikuro]

Reach, gauntlets, and visualization

If you feel that having your combat play out more like Soul Calibur, cool. Nothing wrong with that.

Reach is 10'. According to pg 113 of the PHB, you cannot attack an adjacent square with a reach weapon, like the glaive/guisarme/etc.

Trying to find it in the rules, but the glaive being a 2hand weapon, and the issue of the spiked gauntlet...

Basically, the glaive protects you at reach. Puts you at a disadvantage when someone moves adjacent. At which point, you would/could use the spiked gauntlet, but you would no longer 'threaten' 10' out; you're holding the polearm in one hand, and fighting close up.