D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[Sacrosanct]

I've seen this creep up in various places over the past couple of days, where there is an argument being presented that players are being punished for not doing the 4d6 method of stat gen as opposed to array (or point buy). I don't find that a very strong argument, and hopefully I can explain why.

Note: I didn't provide the formula for the exact odds of rolling X stat Y number of times for 6 stats. that's pretty darn cumbersome, and I think the sample size below can illustrate the point clearly enough and be a good enough sample size to show how things average out. funny enough the average stat total in this example is the same as the array at the bottom (72 points)

reason #1: The most obvious reason why I disagree with the presented argument is that "punished" is being used incorrectly. That's not what punishment means. You aren't being punished by choosing to use array and the person next to you uses 4d6 and ends up with a higher stat. Just like you aren't being punished by investing your money in a reliable and predicable IRA when the guy next to you hits it big on a put option.

reason #2: what seems to be overlooked in all of these arguments is that while you do have a better chance of getting a high stat (after all, any chance at 16+ is better than array since you can't get higher than 15), you also have a chance of getting lower than an 8, or more than 1 stat with a penalty. Also something that is impossible with array. See the illustration below. I ran 15 sets of stats at 4d6 drop lowest. Green cells are those that are better than you can get as opposed to array. Red are those that are worse than array. Yes, there are more green than red, but that does not mean the player who used array is being punished. It's all about risk assessment. Because in this sample size, there are PCs who are significantly worse off than if they used array. And it seems odd to me that if the presented argument is assumed to be true, then the player who used array with higher stats is being punished compared to the player who rolled randomly and got worse stats

Really, this entire discussion is not about punishment. No one is getting punished. It's 100% about "if you take a risk, you may end up better than a guarantee. Or worse." Any argument presented as one of punishment, IMO of course, is a disingenuous one meant to cover up sour grapes. And for those who have said they will suicide their PCs if they don't roll a 17 (which has happened)? Thank God you don't pay at my table because I would ask you to leave. That's behavior* I see out of toddlers, not adults.





*or as I call it, the "Jimmy got a bigger piece of cake than me, not fair!"

 

[Thank Dog]

Random has its place and it's not in stat generation or hit points.

 

[Piratecat]

I have a weird personal divide: I love rolling my character stats, but the game generally plays better when it's point-buy, so it's what I encourage as a GM.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Random has its place and it's not in stat generation or hit points.

That's your opinion and I respect it. I just tend to go the opposite way because as a player, I like having the choice of being able to take the risk if I want it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Really, this entire discussion is not about punishment. No one is getting punished. It's 100% about "if you take a risk, you may end up better than a guarantee. Or worse." Any argument presented as one of punishment, IMO of course, is a disingenuous one meant to cover up sour grapes. And for those who have said they will suicide their PCs if they don't roll a 17 (which has happened)? Thank God you don't pay at my table because I would ask you to leave. That's behavior* I see out of toddlers, not adults.

*or as I call it, the "Jimmy got a bigger piece of cake than me, not fair!"

I have a few problems with rolling, and you seem to hit them on the head. Now I wont say I've never seen the suicide charging low stat character, it is pretty rare.

My rolling issues:

1)CHEATERS... we all know them, some of us put up with them, some of us pretend not to notice them, some of us have kicked there butts to the curb. The problem is how do you really know (not withstanding blatant obvious).

2 examples... back in 2e I watched a kid roll 3 18's in a row. I also played a character with 3 17's and 2 16's and a 14 (yes very much rolled fair... once you know those CAN happen, how do you say "Hey, did you really roll that 18 str?"

2)one set of bad rolls snowballs... if you haven't seen this be glad... it is a train wreck

example: 2 PCs sit to play (as part of a 5 pc team) one is playing a wiz/cleric going for mystic theurge the other a fighter looking to dominate combat... game starts at 3rd level, the fighter rolls sucky stats, and the wiz/cleric high ones... the wiz/cleric starts as a 1/2... so he starts with 10hp (max d8+2con)+4(2 more con levels)+11(rolled an 8 and a 3) 25hp... the fighter rolls a 2 and a 3 for his level ups and starts with 15hp... the fighter has +3Bab +1 focus, +1 magic +2 str... so +7 to hit. the multi class character has a +1 bab +3 dex so +4... you may not HAVE to suicide this character that fighter could just suck enough to just die...

3) uneven design of challenge... is the same orc a challenge for a str 14 con 13 fighter as a str 18 con 16 fighter?
so 4e assumed that you had a 16 stat inceased at every chance +1/2 level +1/5 level as magic... you had a base to work with (and could go over or under said base)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

4d6 drop lowest really seems a bit unfair.

I do use 3d6 replace lowest with a 4. So at least you don´t have chance for a 17 or 18 and you don´t have a high risk for very low (6 or 7) stats. You have a solid chance for at least one roll of 15+ and its 12.5 higher average is only sightly higher than the array (15,14,13,12,10,8) which has an average of 12.

You could modify that to 3d6 replace lowest with a 3, but that would give a chance for a 5, which seems very harsh for a PC.

 

[EtherealWatcher]

Honestly, a good GM can work around any stat. I generally run 2 stat creation rules in my games. If it is a one off or con game I set an array of 18, 17, 17, 16, 16, 15. If I am gonna start a campaign, I have my players roll 4d6, drop low. Sometimes depend on the kind of game I want to roll I will allow them to re-roll 1s. I allow up to two complete set re-rolls where you have to keep the third set no matter what.

 

[was]

We roll our stats in front of the group using the 4d6 and a decent stat array as a fallback. If you don't do well on the roll, you can go with the array instead.

 

[Warunsun]

In my two most recent Castles & Crusades games we used a randomly generated Table Array. Everyone at the table (or anyone entering the campaign later) received the same numbers for their ability scores.

Method: The Table Array
All players and the Dungeon Master of the campaign gather together around the game table. Under the direct supervision of the Dungeon Master each player, one at a time, rolls four six-sided dice (4d6). The player discards the lowest die and totals the remaining three. This score is recorded to the array by the DUNGEON MASTER. Repeat this six more times allowing each player to roll one or two attribute scores to fill the array of seven scores. The Dungeon Master can also roll some of the scores if there isn’t enough players to cover the seven scores. Then the lowest single score will be crossed off the array. The final array of six attribute scores will be recorded and used by all players for all player created characters for the duration of the campaign. Each player may assign the six numbers to the character’s attributes however they want. This is a fast method that gives everyone an above-average character. All characters will also be on equal footing using this method since their attribute score numbers will be the same before race modification and other advantages.

But we are seriously considering using a point buy method when we try fifth edition.
If you are curious the campaign arrays were:

• 10, 12, 13, 13, 14, 16
• 11, 11, 13, 16, 16, 17

 

[fba827]

While I don't have a problem with rolling stats in of itself, what I don't like is the player problems that it has the potential to bring. Either the people who always seem to have the awesome godlike stats that they rolled at home before the game, or the player who will roll in front of the group but if gets less than godlike stats will pout and have the PC with a death wish which just gets disruptive as he goes through pcs.
As a dm, it just avoids those types of player problems but not having rolled stats.
That's based on my own person experiences. I know not everyone has necessarily seen those types of player issues, but I've seen them enough that I just would rather avoid the potential of those problems in the first place.