D&D General Art in D&D

[MGibster]

I honestly don't know how significant the art of earlier editions was in regards to how many women and girls played Dungeons & Dragons three decades ago. TSR certainly made efforts to market to women as they make an appearance in print and television ads during the 70s, 80s, and 90s. I suspect there were more reasons D&D largely remained the domain of middle class adolescent white males throughout that time period.

But I can't dismiss that the artwork might have been a part of the reason why D&D was largely male dominated. I refused to purchase many of the d20 splat books produced by Avalanche Press in the early 2000s specifically because of their cheesecake covers. As I said earlier, I'm a context kind of person. The covers of these supplements offended me not because they showed a lot of skin or because of their poses but because the cover of an RPG supplement wasn't the right context for those illustrations.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

I suspect there were more reasons D&D largely remained the domain of middle class adolescent white males throughout that time period.

Because those were the majority types that had read the pulps, the dime novels, and the latter speculative fiction market deriving from these and that eventually drove a detour to such via the advent of RPGs? Umm. Could be...

 

[Umbran]

and the latter speculative fiction market deriving from these ....

I think the idea that there was a paucity of female speculative fiction readers in the 80s or later... to fit in the category of "extraordinary assertions require extraordinary evidence".

I will accept that the wargaming root was male-dominated. But I don't buy that for fiction readership.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

I think the idea that there was a paucity of female speculative fiction readers in the 80s or later... to fit in the category of "extraordinary assertions require extraordinary evidence".

I will accept that the wargaming root was male-dominated. But I don't buy that for fiction readership.

Well. There were no female comic book readers of the superhero variety that I noted (maybe some Archie and Veronica types); and girls in 5th-8th grade (and thus later) were not reading heroic fantasy or S&S (more like Nancy Drew and mystery Hardy Boys stuff) as well as romance. With the SCA, of which I was a member, they were more prevalent, and I surmise that holds true for LARP and Ren Fairs as well, today. Boys really are different than girls in that respect. I could go on and on and on with the examples; but in my view and experience they just did not want to watch Batman on the television nor did they get into Star Trek as much, though the latter did wean a few more due to the Romantic angles and tension from that especially in the 3rd season as it was bumped to a later time for that audience. I Spy with Robert Culp and Bill Cosby. Nope. My mother wouldn't even watch that let alone my sister. Journey to the Center of the Earth? The Gygax girls were all conspicuously absent from that as well as they were for The Raven, Pit and the Pendulum, et al. Flash Gordon on Sunday mornings? Nope. They liked Bozo the Clown due to the contests and the crowd and the fun. But the A-Team? Maverick? Anything adventure-oriented including Westerns. Nope. So in my experience, even DMing Sunken City at Gencon VIII, in two rounds, I had one female participant. Now that incrementally changed over time, but from the 60's to 70's, nope, no where in sight.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I think you may be missing a large part of the point. Everyone keeps using the word "offended". That's not actually the issue for D&D art. This isn't about, "Oh, no, we see skin, and are puritanical people!"

The issue with cheesecake art is that the art displayed in the game materials represents the characters. It sets expectations. So, when a woman sees that art, the implication is that is what the characters are like in people's minds. The art says, "Female characters are eye-candy."

Coupled with a culture outside the game - in the world at large, in which women are, in fact, treated as sex objects, this isn't just offensive - it is demoralizing and may actually induce fear of the kind of focus on their sexuality that they see in everyday life. If you were sick and tired of being treated as a lesser being because of your gender, and tired of being constantly considered a sex object, that art simply says, "That game is not for me."

That is why they don't include that art any more - because while it may have sold to men, it turned women away from the game - and that's bad for business.

Maybe, some day in the future, when we have gotten past prevailing sexism in our culture, or we have regressed further back into that sexism, that art will be seen again in a mainstream game. But, so long as there's a power imbalance in society, but we are acutely aware of it, that art will be problematic and rare.

I miss nothing here. You and i simply disagree. Nearly 100%. Sorry. I just dont agree.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I’ve always been a sucker for the late 1-to-early 2e art; my favorites were always Elmore, Easley, Caldwell, etc.

That said, I really don’t have any real criticisms of the 5e art; not my favorite, but it also doesn’t contain my LEAST favorite, who was Tony DiTerlizzi. Nothing against the man himself, but his style of portrayals, with every single character just vaguely unnatural and aberrant, usually spindly, sometimes bloated, just always creeped me out. I’d love it if just his Fey were like that, the man can draw Fey as I’ve always pictured them, but in every other subject was just off-putting for me (it’s possible that’s why Planescape never resonated with me much.)

you arent the only one who thought his drawings were occasionally just...weird...off...skin crawl...

Cant always put my finger on it but the man's drawings just...weird me out sometimes.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I honestly don't know how significant the art of earlier editions was in regards to how many women and girls played Dungeons & Dragons three decades ago. TSR certainly made efforts to market to women as they make an appearance in print and television ads during the 70s, 80s, and 90s. I suspect there were more reasons D&D largely remained the domain of middle class adolescent white males throughout that time period.

But I can't dismiss that the artwork might have been a part of the reason why D&D was largely male dominated. I refused to purchase many of the d20 splat books produced by Avalanche Press in the early 2000s specifically because of their cheesecake covers. As I said earlier, I'm a context kind of person. The covers of these supplements offended me not because they showed a lot of skin or because of their poses but because the cover of an RPG supplement wasn't the right context for those illustrations.

View attachment 116435

I can agree with this sentiment. The focus was definitely drawn off from where it was aupposed to be at times by covers such as the above. I can get behind that.

 

[Hussar]

There is also another issue.

Everyone LITERALLY everyone it appears has agreed since the very beginning that its cheesecake. So a third issue is that literally no one has denied that its cheesecake. But some have acted as though that was being contested. When it was by no one.

"LITERALLY everyone"? Really?

You may call that cheesecake but i think that might actually be more skillful than anything ive seen in 5e. Or at least anything that comes to mind.

Yes. Really. The art in that piece takes vastly more technical skill than the average art i see in 5e.

What the art is saying is irrelevant to what i, myself, was saying.

Sorry this art offends you but yeah. Far greater technical skill and command over anatomical elements than the average art of 5e. The vulgarity couldnt be any less relevant.

Dont pearl clutch so hard that you end up needing a chiropractor.

Sorry the art doesnt acheive your moral standards.

Huh. Looks to me like not "everyone" appears to have agreed that this was cheesecake from the very beginning.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I’ve always been a sucker for the late 1-to-early 2e art; my favorites were always Elmore, Easley, Caldwell, etc.

That said, I really don’t have any real criticisms of the 5e art; not my favorite, but it also doesn’t contain my LEAST favorite, who was Tony DiTerlizzi. Nothing against the man himself, but his style of portrayals, with every single character just vaguely unnatural and aberrant, usually spindly, sometimes bloated, just always creeped me out. I’d love it if just his Fey were like that, the man can draw Fey as I’ve always pictured them, but in every other subject was just off-putting for me (it’s possible that’s why Planescape never resonated with me much.)

I know he is very strongly associated with Planescape, and is a great artist, but I really disliked some of his fiends. His glabrezu is terrible.

I don't want to fight that. I want to take it home and adopt it. I'd name it Rover.

 

[Parmandur]

Well. There were no female comic book readers of the superhero variety that I noted (maybe some Archie and Veronica types); and girls in 5th-8th grade (and thus later) were not reading heroic fantasy or S&S (more like Nancy Drew and mystery Hardy Boys stuff) as well as romance. With the SCA, of which I was a member, they were more prevalent, and I surmise that holds true for LARP and Ren Fairs as well, today. Boys really are different than girls in that respect. I could go on and on and on with the examples; but in my view and experience they just did not want to watch Batman on the television nor did they get into Star Trek as much, though the latter did wean a few more due to the Romantic angles and tension from that especially in the 3rd season as it was bumped to a later time for that audience. I Spy with Robert Culp and Bill Cosby. Nope. My mother wouldn't even watch that let alone my sister. Journey to the Center of the Earth? The Gygax girls were all conspicuously absent from that as well as they were for The Raven, Pit and the Pendulum, et al. Flash Gordon on Sunday mornings? Nope. They liked Bozo the Clown due to the contests and the crowd and the fun. But the A-Team? Maverick? Anything adventure-oriented including Westerns. Nope. So in my experience, even DMing Sunken City at Gencon VIII, in two rounds, I had one female participant. Now that incrementally changed over time, but from the 60's to 70's, nope, no where in sight.

Chicken and Egg problem, though, isn't it?