Artificers, or any spellcaster, and scribe spells feat

[Staffan]

First, I understand it for the infusions, they aren't either Arcane or Divine, but how does that effect items that are made by an Artificer? Is there some protection from Arcane or Divine energy that I am unaware of where it makes a difference? From what I read, it just seems like Infusions are just a different sort of magic.

It doesn't matter much for infusions, no.

Second, I don't have the book in front of me, but I don't recall that it says anywhere that items made from an Artificer are not Arcane or Divine, just the Infusions. So why does everyone keep saying that items made from an Artificer are not Arcane or Divine? Did I miss something?

It's in the errata. Roughly the middle of the first column on the first page. The errata file I have is marked 02/06/2006, yours might be older.

Third, does it say in the errata somewhere that you can't scribe a Artificer scroll into a mages spell book, cause I can't find that rule, or any rules about Sorcerer scroll compared to Wizards scrolls?

Wizards can only use arcane scrolls with spells that appear on the wizard spell list (I think scrolls are the only items where the arcane/divine difference matters). Since the scrolls made by an artificer are not arcane, they are useless to a wizard (unless the wizard has Use Magical Device, of course).

What about if you are an Artificer with Wizard levels, what happens then?

You can either use "artificer shortcuts" and make a non-arcane, non-divine scroll of pretty much any spell, using Use Magic Device to "fake" the prereqs, or you can do it the old-fashioned way with spells you know as a wizard. The scrolls you make as a wizard can be scribed - not by you though, since you presumably already know them.

You guys keep mentioning errata on the Artificer, but mine doesn't mention any of this, perhaps I have an old file cause mine doesn't mention anything about 'items' created by Artificers as not being Divine or Arcane, just infusions.

Since the errata files are dated, I still have the old errata files as well. It seems the rule about artificer items being neither arcane nor divine was added in the errata file marked 12/08/2004 (I think that's December 8th, but I never could get the hang of the weird way dates are written in the US).

 

[irdeggman]

From WotC errata for ECS (file dated 2/6/2006)

Page 32: Artificer—Item Creation
Magic items created by an artificer are considered neither arcane nor divine.

Also pay attention to text in the ECS on artificers. "They are not spellcasters." This helps lay the foundation for why they can do the things they do and why they are not arcane nor divine.


Steffan pretty much laid out the reasons why artificers can't scribe spells into wizard's spell books.


Multiclass spell casters still have to follow all the rules for each class (they are treated as separate).

So a bard/cleric cannot make an arcane cure light wounds spell unless he has "learned it". Although a bard who didn't know cure light wounds could still cast it from an arcane scroll of the same.


Scrolls are the only item with this specific type restriction.


Attached is the WotC errata

 

[Hypersmurf]

So a bard/cleric cannot make an arcane cure light wounds spell unless he has "learned it".

I'm not positive I agree.

The arcane/divine nature of the scroll is determined by the creator's class. The creator is, among other things, a bard; he can scribe arcane scrolls.

If a pure bard scribed a scroll (as the creator), with the Cure Light Wounds spell supplied by a cleric, the result would be an arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds (under the assumption that Cure Light Wounds is a prerequisite spell for the creation of the magic item, Scroll of Cure Light Wounds).

Is there a reason that a multiclass bard scribing a scroll (as the creator), with the Cure Light Wounds spell supplied by a cleric who happens to be him, could not create the same arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds?

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

I'm not positive I agree.

The arcane/divine nature of the scroll is determined by the creator's class. The creator is, among other things, a bard; he can scribe arcane scrolls.

If a pure bard scribed a scroll (as the creator), with the Cure Light Wounds spell supplied by a cleric, the result would be an arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds (under the assumption that Cure Light Wounds is a prerequisite spell for the creation of the magic item, Scroll of Cure Light Wounds).

Is there a reason that a multiclass bard scribing a scroll (as the creator), with the Cure Light Wounds spell supplied by a cleric who happens to be him, could not create the same arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds?

-Hyp.

The only way that could work is if you use cooperative creating.

I guess it could be done, but it does seem to be stretching things since cooperating was set up for multiple parties.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).
When two spells at the end of a list are separated by “or,” one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two.

Now it really isn't that much of stretch to apply the cooperative aspect to a single character, but like I said it appears that wasn't the intent based on the text referring to two or more characters.

 

[irdeggman]

Third, does it say in the errata somewhere that you can't scribe a Artificer scroll into a mages spell book, cause I can't find that rule, or any rules about Sorcerer scroll compared to Wizards scrolls? What about if you are an Artificer with Wizard levels, what happens then?

From the SRD.

Note that adding spells to a wizard's spell book is under Arcane Magical Writings.

ARCANE MAGICAL WRITINGS
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it.

To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.

Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll.

Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)

Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast.

Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level x50 gp.

Independent Research: A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.
Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.
Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.
Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.

Basically in order to add a spell into the wizard's spellbook it has to be an arcane writing. Spell research is the exception.

There is essentially no difference between a sorcerer and a wizard's scrolls. Well there is one. The minimum casting level for a spell can't be bypassed (except for the artificer special ability). What this means is that a sorcerer casts a no lower than 6d6 fireball while a wizard casts a no lower than 5d6 one. Minimum caster level for a sorcer to cast a fireball is 6th level while a wizard is 5th (when they have access to 3rd level spells). So a sorcerer who makes a scroll of fireball has to have at least a Caster Level of 6 while a wizard has to have at least 5th. Does that make sense or am I just making it more confusing. 3.5 is very precise (compared to previous editions) on how things work, especially creating magic items.

Both a sorcerer and wizard create arcane scrolls.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The only way that could work is if you use cooperative creating.

Let's say we have a wizard, who scribes a scroll... and supplies the spell prerequisite by activating a Wand of Command using UMD.

The result would be an arcane scroll of Command, right?

Now let's say he's a wizard/druid, who scribes a scroll... and supplies the spell prerequisite by activating a Wand of Command using UMD.

He could choose whether the resulting scroll of Command would be arcane or divine, right? Since the class of the creator determines the type, and his 'class' is both arcane and divine.

He's not using cooperative crafting, he's providing a spell prerequisite through use of a spell completion magic item that produces the desired spell effect.

Now, on the other hand, a spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell. So if a wizard/cleric has prepared the Command spell, he can scribe the scroll and provide the spell prerequisite himself. Why would he not get the same choice - to make the scroll arcane or divine - that the wizard/druid with the wand gets?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So a sorcerer who makes a scroll of fireball has to have at least a Caster Level of 6 while a wizard has to have at least 5th. Does that make sense or am I just making it more confusing.

Of course, a 5th level sorcerer can use a CL 5 scroll of fireball (presumably scribed by a wizard) without needing to make a caster level check

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Let's say we have a wizard, who scribes a scroll... and supplies the spell prerequisite by activating a Wand of Command using UMD.

The result would be an arcane scroll of Command, right?

Now let's say he's a wizard/druid, who scribes a scroll... and supplies the spell prerequisite by activating a Wand of Command using UMD.

He could choose whether the resulting scroll of Command would be arcane or divine, right? Since the class of the creator determines the type, and his 'class' is both arcane and divine.

He's not using cooperative crafting, he's providing a spell prerequisite through use of a spell completion magic item that produces the desired spell effect.

True, but he could end up creating an item that requires a UMD check in order to use since the spell might not be on the correct list right?

For example a bard can't cast a divine scroll of cure light wounds, unless he uses UMD.

Now, on the other hand, a spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell. So if a wizard/cleric has prepared the Command spell, he can scribe the scroll and provide the spell prerequisite himself. Why would he not get the same choice - to make the scroll arcane or divine - that the wizard/druid with the wand gets?

-Hyp.

Like I said, it is not that far a stretch to use cooperative magic that way even though the RAW implies that it is for multiple characters.

Now an artificer doesn't quite work that way though.

pg 32 ECS

"An artificer's infusions do not meet the spell prerequisites for creating magic items."

Now it does continue to say

"For example, an artificer must still employ the UMD skill to emulate the light spell to create a wand of light, even though light appears on his infusion list."

 

[Hypersmurf]

True, but he could end up creating an item that requires a UMD check in order to use since the spell might not be on the correct list right?

Oh, absolutely.

Or odd results like a wizard and a cleric collaborating to create an item that neither a wizard nor a cleric can use, but a bard (arcane CLW) or adept (divine Lightning Bolt) can.

Or, of course, divine scrolls of any spell you care to name, which an archivist can then scribe and prepare...

Like I said, it is not that far a stretch to use cooperative magic that way even though the RAW implies that it is for multiple characters.

Why would you use the cooperative creation rules, though, when the relevant rules don't reference them?

Command is a spell prepared by the creator. The arcane/divine nature of the scroll is determined by the creator's class. The creator's class (one of them, at least) is wizard, so he can create arcane scrolls.

Where does cooperative creation come into it, in this case?

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Why would you use the cooperative creation rules, though, when the relevant rules don't reference them?

Command is a spell prepared by the creator. The arcane/divine nature of the scroll is determined by the creator's class. The creator's class (one of them, at least) is wizard, so he can create arcane scrolls.

Where does cooperative creation come into it, in this case?

-Hyp.

Because at some point in the discussion before we got into specifics lijke using items to supply spells the question was made about a multiclassed character supplying the spells from one side and the other to get a new spell for his wizard's spell book. And it went to an artificer/wizard.