D&D 5E Ashardalon Stride + Haste

[auburn2]

I have a bladesinger with a Shield Guardian.

Thinking about using Haste (cast by the shield Guardian) plus Ashardalon's Stride upcast at 4th level (cast by bladesinger).

My understanding here is the Shield Guardian is the one concentrating on Haste so the bladesinger can concentrate on something else. I think this would give me a move of 130 (30+10bladesong+25Ashardalon's stride=65 doubled for Haste) and deal 2d6 to every enemy I walk past. I could also take dash as my haste action to add 65 for 195 while still doing a full action.

Is this a correct reading of this?

Would you allow it as a DM?

 

[DND_Reborn]

It is a lot, using the only stored spell of the guardian, plus a decent upcast spell slot, for minimal damage (7 points per target isn't much unless it is a lot of low CR creatures).

Now, the damage is potentially every round, provided you keep moving, but both you and the guardian need to maintain concentration.

But, sure I would allow it--it is strong but not really broken IMO.

 

[Dausuul]

I have a bladesinger with a Shield Guardian.

Thinking about using Haste (cast by the shield Guardian) plus Ashardalon's Stride upcast at 4th level (cast by bladesinger).

My understanding here is the Shield Guardian is the one concentrating on Haste so the bladesinger can concentrate on something else. I think this would give me a move of 130 (30+10bladesong+25Ashardalon's stride=65 doubled for Haste) and deal 2d6 to every enemy I walk past. I could also take dash as my haste action to add 65 for 195 while still doing a full action.

Is this a correct reading of this?

Would you allow it as a DM?

I believe it is the correct reading, and yes, I would allow it. The expenditure of resources is considerable (a 3rd-level stored spell and a 4th-level slot); the effect is 2d6 damage per round to each enemy on the battlefield, and what amounts to a free teleport plus extra attack each round.

That's quite good; but keep in mind that for the same resources, you could simply lob a fireball and have the guardian do likewise, hammering your foes with 17d6 damage in a single round. There are pros and cons to each. The Ashardalon combo might be better if your enemies are very spread out, or mixed up with the party, or if the guardian's initiative doesn't line up well for a double-punch fireball... but I think I would usually try for the double-punch. 5E heavily favors the alpha strike.

(Also remember that the guardian takes half the damage dealt to you any time it's within 60 feet; so an enemy can hit you to force a concentration save on both spells. And if the guardian blows its save, you lose your next turn.)

 

[TheSword]

Doubling mostly takes place before other modifiers like bladesong etc just so you know… mostly.

 

[Sulicius]

Sounds legit. I’ve never had movement speed past a certain point break an encounter, it’s just fun.
Gotta go fast.

 

[Lyxen]

I think this would give me a move of 130 (30+10bladesong+25Ashardalon's stride=65 doubled for Haste)

This is the only part that bothers me a bit, why is the overall speed doubled ? It could be read that the basic speed is doubled, then the additions added. Why should the additions come first and the doubling last ? Why would haste affect other spell / capabilities ? Speed could actually by 95 "only".

Note that I don't have any confirmation here one way or another, maybe it was in a "Sage Advice somewhere ?

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

This is the only part that bothers me a bit, why is the overall speed doubled ? It could be read that the basic speed is doubled, then the additions added. Why should the additions come first and the doubling last ? Why would haste affect other spell / capabilities ? Speed could actually by 95 "only".

Note that I don't have any confirmation here one way or another, maybe it was in a "Sage Advice somewhere ?

I think the situation is the other way around. Why would it NOT double the speed including the spell buff. Haste doesn't say do not include magical additions to speed. It says double the target's speed.

 

[Lyxen]

I think the situation is the other way around. Why would it NOT double the speed including the spell buff.

Why ? Why would Haste affect a buff ? It affects a target, not buffs.

Haste doesn't say do not include magical additions to speed. It says double the target's speed.

And the other spells do not say that what they add is doubled by any effect, it just adds to the speed. Haste doubles the speed, fine, and the others simply add to it.

 

[ECMO3]

I think its pretty straight forward. Haste states the target's speed is doubled. In the example provided the target's speed is 65, so that is what is doubled. It does not say it gives you additional movement or doubles base speed or adds speed, it says it doubles the target's [current] speed.

To turn this around - if a normal target with a base 30 foot move was suffering from 5 levels of exhaustion his speed is 0, casting Haste does not make it 30, it is still 0. Casting haste on the same person with 2 levels of exhasution (speed 15), Haste would make that 30, not 45.

I will add that you are talking about using two magic spells to move 130 ft in 6 seconds. That is not actually very fast in the sceme of things. It is nowhere near what a word-class sprinter will do, most NFL athletes can move substantially faster than that, typically doing 120ft in under 5 seconds.

 

[Lyxen]

I think its pretty straight forward. Haste states the target's speed is doubled. In the example provided the target's speed is 65, so that is what is doubled. It does not say it gives you additional movement or doubles base speed or adds speed, it says it doubles the target's [current] speed.

Nope, you are obviously adding the "current" above. The reasoning works exactly the same way with the other option: the bladesinger has a speed of 30, so it's doubled by the haste. After that, bladsinging adds 10 feet to that speed and Ashardalon's Stride adds 25 feet to that speed. You have exactly zero ground to support that one is done before the other. On the other hand, spells and powers affect a creature, not its buffs.

It's purely a DM's call (unless you point out a rule that shows the contrary), and as a DM, I would not allow haste to double the speed of the buffs, that's all.

I will add that you are talking about using two magic spells to move at about the same distance in 6 seconds as an olympic sprinter, so while that is fast it is not out of this world fast or physics defying fast, despite being "magic".

I am just discussing rules, not realism or verisimilitude.

 

[ECMO3]

Doubling mostly takes place before other modifiers like bladesong etc just so you know… mostly.

Do you have a source for this because doubling acts on your speed, which is affected by those modifiers.

 

[Lyxen]

Do you have a source for this because doubling acts on your speed, which is affected by those modifiers.

Do you have a source for this, because these modifiers are actually added to your speed, which is just doubled by haste.

I'm not saying your position is incorrect, I'm just saying that there is another one, just as valid, and that it's up to a DM to choose.

 

[ECMO3]

Nope, you are obviously adding the "current" above. The reasoning works exactly the same way with the other option: the bladesinger has a speed of 30, so it's doubled by the haste. After that, bladsinging adds 10 feet to that speed and Ashardalon's Stride adds 25 feet to that speed. You have exactly zero ground to support that one is done before the other. On the other hand, spells and powers affect a creature, not its buffs.

A bladesinger in bladesong has a speed of 40 though not 30.

Also this bring up all kinds of conflicts:

What if I am over my max carrying weight and my speed is 0, does Haste add 30 because that is my base speed? What if I am a Monk?

 

[ECMO3]

Do you have a source for this, because these modifiers are actually added to your speed, which is just doubled by haste.

I think you are confusing move and speed. They are added to your speed,not to your move. They don't just add to how far you move, they acttually change the speed.

Speed is a reference number, like hit points. Your speed value defines how far you can move.

 

[Lyxen]

A bladesinger in bladesong has a speed of 40 though not 30.

And a bladesinger under haste has a speed of 60, to which the bladesinging adds 10.

Also this bring up all kinds of conflicts:

What if I am over my max carrying weight and my speed is 0, does Haste add 30 because that is my base speed? What if I am a Monk?

Exactly, all of this is purely for a DM's adjudication, I'm just telling you how I would solve it.

 

[Lyxen]

I think you are confusing move and speed. They are added to your speed,not to your move.

Nope, all these powers affect your speed:

• Haste: Until the spell ends, the target's speed is doubled
• Ashardalon's Stride: For the duration, your speed increases by 20 feet
• Bladesinging: Your walking speed increases by 10 feet

Speed is a reference number, like hit points. Your speed value defines how far you can move.

That's exactly my point. Haste doubles it, then the others just add to that.

 

[James Gasik]

Looking over the rules, I think the order of operations should be (base speed + modifiers) then doubled. The wording of the Dash action implies this. Haste doubles your speed. A Monk, for example, gains a bonus to their speed. If you were intended to calculate the bonus to speed after doubling, Haste would explicitly say so.

TLDR: to double speed, you have to determine what your speed IS. If your speed is increased by a numerical value, that is your speed.

 

[Lyxen]

Looking over the rules, I think the order of operations should be (base speed + modifiers) then doubled.

Show me the rule.

The wording of the Dash action implies this. Haste doubles your speed.

The dash action does not multiply you speed, it ADDS to it: "you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed".

Moreover, it specifically mentions: "after applying any modifiers", which Haste does not.

A Monk, for example, gains a bonus to their speed. If you were intended to calculate the bonus to speed after doubling, Haste would explicitly say so.

Why should it ?

TLDR: to double speed, you have to determine what your speed IS. If your speed is increased by a numerical value, that is your speed.

It can be said exactly the same way with the other powers: "To increase your speed, you need to determine what your speed IS. If your speed is multiplied by an effect, that is your speed."

 

[James Gasik]

Ok, just think a second. What's easier to do? Look at your speed on your character sheet, which should already take the bonus speed of say, a Monk, into account, and double that, or remember "oh if I am doubling my speed, I should remember that 10 feet of my speed is applied after doubling".

 

[Lyxen]

Ok, just think a second. What's easier to do? Look at your speed on your character sheet, which should already take the bonus speed of say, a Monk, into account, and double that, or remember "oh if I am doubling my speed, I should remember that 10 feet of my speed is applied after doubling".

Since when is simplicity an argument for choosing how rules are applied ? My only point is that the rules don't point one way or another, it's purely up to the DM.

Moreover, the speed increase of the monk is not inherent. It depends on the circumstances, like not wearing armor or wielding a shield. It's a modifier like any other.