D&D (2024) Asians Represent: "Has WotC Fixed the D&D Monk?"

[Clint_L]

Except that

A.) heavy armor isn’t actually very restrictive of movement in real life, and

Not that D&D needs to reflect real life, but this is just not true. Or, it's sort of true but only half the story.

What is true is that the restrictiveness of heavy armour has tended to be overstated. Obviously, armour like tournament plate was extremely restrictive but it was built for a specific, largely artificial combat purpose. Other forms of heavy armour, like chain or the type of plate actually worn in a real battle, allowed more freedom that is popularly supposed, but we don't want to over correct to suggesting that they weren't tiring and didn't impede movement, because they were and they did, primarily through the extra cost they imposed. Well designed plate allowed a pretty full range of movement but at the cost of a lot of extra effort.

Which is to say that you would not want to try to do martial arts based on speed and agility while wearing heavy armour. Which is obvious, really, if you've ever practiced a martial art.

 

[Micah Sweet]

See, I don't agree. It's not just WotC who wants Dungeons & Dragons to be the flagship for everyone... all the people who play it want it that way too. And there will always be people who feel like the game does not go far enough to truly represent the player base that wants it to be.

And no... 'D&D East' could easily be just as good a game as 'D&D West' (if not better) and still not be as popular-- the quality of the game would not be the sole factor in this. More likely it would be two-fold... the languages and countries it got printed and released in, and the fantasy world representations of both and the audience sizes and expectations for them. If these two books were released in the same way D&D books get released right now... 50 years of D&D players would come to the table expecting Euro-medieval fantasy and not Eastern fantasy... so odds I think are good that if you put both books side-by-side any 'D&D West' would outsell 'D&D East' through no fault other than people's expectations and the numbers/locations available for purchase.

There's no good answer for WotC, and people shouldn't expect one from them. Let "official" go, and turn to 3pp and homebrew, and maybe then people can have the game they actually want.

 

[Alzrius]

Other forms of heavy armour, like chain or the type of plate actually worn in a real battle, allowed more freedom that is popularly supposed, but we don't want to over correct to suggesting that they weren't tiring and didn't impede movement, because they were and they did, primarily through the extra cost they imposed.

As a personal example of this, a number of years ago I bought a chain shirt at Gen Con. There were two types available: one made out of aluminum, and one made out of steel. The aluminum one was fairly lightweight, but the seller told me it wouldn't actually protect me from much of anything, whereas the steel one would...but it weighed forty pounds. Being quite young at the time, I bought the steel one anyway, only to find that just walking around in it for a short period of time left me sore and exhausted.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I think the Monk should have a choice at 1st or 2nd level over "Internal" Martial Arts (which the D&D Monk has traditionally been) vs "External" Martial Arts. It'll go a long way in referencing some concepts of different Martial Arts and cultures, and offering the Monk more room for different archetypes.

 

[Sacrosanct]

As a personal example of this, a number of years ago I bought a chain shirt at Gen Con. There were two types available: one made out of aluminum, and one made out of steel. The aluminum one was fairly lightweight, but the seller told me it wouldn't actually protect me from much of anything, whereas the steel one would...but it weighed forty pounds. Being quite young at the time, I bought the steel one anyway, only to find that just walking around in it for a short period of time left me sore and exhausted.

Yeah, unless you're trained in wearing armor for extended periods, it wears on you (no pun intended). More than people think.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Verisimilitude vs fantasy. Another prime example of 5E trying to be too big of a tent. Some hate verisimilitude with the fire of a thousand suns, others can’t be bothered to care about something without at least a modicum of even faux-realism. The designers should pick a side on this and go all out. But they won’t because it would be jettisoning some fans. So they try and fail to design for both.

I mean, that's one way to look at it.

The other way to look at it is that the people that hate verisimilitude with the fire of a thousand suns, and the people that demand that the game be accurate down to simulating the inflation in the economy because the adventurers brought in some treasure, amount to a very small number of gamers.

Whereas the vast majority of gamers don't actually care that much either way. And that's the market that they want. Big tent means designing not for the most demanding fans (who will gravitate to more niche games that support their interests), but designing a game that is "good enough" at a number of things to scratch the itch in a number of areas, for a number of people. So that it's acceptable ... you know, the kind of thing that you can get 4-8 people (1 DM and 3-7 players) to agree on any given night.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

You mean those mountains in the background of Jackie Chan's "Rumble In The Bronx" were not supposed to be there? Shocked! SHOCKED, I SAY!!!

Rumble in the Bronx was filmed in Vancouver. I had to look that up when you mentioned mountains being near Toronto. That's not a thing.

 

[Charlaquin]

Not that D&D needs to reflect real life, but this is just not true. Or, it's sort of true but only half the story.

What is true is that the restrictiveness of heavy armour has tended to be overstated. Obviously, armour like tournament plate was extremely restrictive but it was built for a specific, largely artificial combat purpose. Other forms of heavy armour, like chain or the type of plate actually worn in a real battle, allowed more freedom that is popularly supposed, but we don't want to over correct to suggesting that they weren't tiring and didn't impede movement, because they were and they did, primarily through the extra cost they imposed. Well designed plate allowed a pretty full range of movement but at the cost of a lot of extra effort.

Which is to say that you would not want to try to do martial arts based on speed and agility while wearing heavy armour. Which is obvious, really, if you've ever practiced a martial art.

I think we’re largely quibbling over word choice here. Certainly armor carried some cost to mobility, but mainly that was due to movements being more taxing (and that was mostly due to more heat build-up), rather than the armor being what I would describe as “restrictive.” Most armor doesn’t limit your range of motion all that much (some, but not much), it just takes greater exertion to make those movements while armored.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

They don't think that WOTC understands real world martial arts as well and suggest bringing in a consultant who practices martial arts from multiple cultures to fix many obvious issues with the way the game presents them.

I think this one nails it. D&D has never seemed to have had anyone who knows much about martial arts get a chance to take a stab at the monk.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean, that's one way to look at it.

The other way to look at it is that the people that hate verisimilitude with the fire of a thousand suns, and the people that demand that the game be accurate down to simulating the inflation in the economy because the adventurers brought in some treasure, amount to a very small number of gamers.

Whereas the vast majority of gamers don't actually care that much either way. And that's the market that they want. Big tent means designing not for the most demanding fans (who will gravitate to more niche games that support their interests), but designing a game that is "good enough" at a number of things to scratch the itch in a number of areas, for a number of people. So that it's acceptable ... you know, the kind of thing that you can get 4-8 people (1 DM and 3-7 players) to agree on any given night.

And if they were honest about that, and actually admitted they weren't designing for literally every gamer, I think WotC and the community at large would be better off.