D&D (2024) Asians Represent: "Has WotC Fixed the D&D Monk?"

[MGibster]

We few schmucks here on EN World can't even agree whether Rangers should have favored enemies or not... do we really think the billions of people in the Asian market will all come together and agree whether the D&D Monk is acceptable or not no matter the changes?

This is not about the Asian market. What bothers people in the American or Canadian market might not be on the radar of consumers in China, Japan, or Korea.

 

[tetrasodium]

See, I don't agree. It's not just WotC who wants Dungeons & Dragons to be the flagship for everyone... all the people who play it want it that way too. And there will always be people who feel like the game does not go far enough to truly represent the player base that wants it to be.

And no... 'D&D East' could easily be just as good a game as 'D&D West' (if not better) and still not be as popular-- the quality of the game would not be the sole factor in this. More likely it would be two-fold... the languages and countries it got printed and released in, and the fantasy world representations of both and the audience sizes and expectations for them. If these two books were released in the same way D&D books get released right now... 50 years of D&D players would come to the table expecting Euro-medieval fantasy and not Eastern fantasy... so odds I think are good that if you put both books side-by-side any 'D&D West' would outsell 'D&D East' through no fault other than people's expectations and the numbers/locations available for purchase.

It's telling that the unarmed unarmored monk does not even appear to be in the anime style d&d artwork wotc put out. If wotc's not even willing to touch it with a ten foot pole why should any player wanting to play a monk at my table be able to force me as a GM into it?

 

[Vaalingrade]

I honestly can't tell if this is an argument for, or a sarcastic slam, considering that the ideal martial artist that people want to play is more within the venn diagram of Arcade Fighting Cabinets, Shonen Manga, and Wuixa films. And less within the realms of MMA.

Thing is, there's martial arts that is actually interesting to do and watch; it's not all MMA hugging and Fred Flintstone feet. That's the baseline from which we get the fun, fantastical stuff.

We should be able to do all that stuff and the real life things you see in demonstrations of things like tiger hook fights and capoeira or even pro wrestling, but right now we've got neither and instead we have an anemic stab at bending and the like. D&D can't even manage basic locks and throws. Because let's be honest, they don't particularly care about this class that is more clearly not a wizard than even Fighter.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This is not about the Asian market. What bothers people in the American or Canadian market might not be on the radar of consumers in China, Japan, or Korea.

True. But even people who are concerned about Asian representation in America and Canada will not agree as a monolith that one decision ends up being acceptable to all. No matter what track WotC ends up taking, they will receive blowback-- either because they went too far or didn't go far enough, or changed the wrong things and didn't change the right things. There's no single answer here.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It's telling that the unarmed unarmored monk does not even appear to be in the anime style d&d artwork wotc put out. If wotc's not even willing to touch it with a ten foot pole why should any player wanting to play a monk at my table be able to force me as a GM into it?

I'm not sure I understand your point? This is on me. I think I'm misunderstanding the correlation between the artwork and your players forcing something on you?

 

[Vaalingrade]

So you don't really want a martial artists, you want a cultural consultant? Because when I hear martial artists, that could be anyone from Rhonda Rousey to Rodtang Jitmuangnon.

D&D's Monk ignores them and focuses exclusively on mimicking the cultural word salad of 'Asia as seen by American Pop Culture circa the late seventies and early eighties and not a nanosecond more recent except where we grudgingly have to acknowledge Avatar'. They need a consultant.

 

[Emberashh]

See, I don't agree. It's not just WotC who wants Dungeons & Dragons to be the flagship for everyone... all the people who play it want it that way too. And there will always be people who feel like the game does not go far enough to truly represent the player base that wants it to be.

And no... 'D&D East' could easily be just as good a game as 'D&D West' (if not better) and still not be as popular-- the quality of the game would not be the sole factor in this. More likely it would be two-fold... the languages and countries it got printed and released in, and the fantasy world representations of both and the audience sizes and expectations for them. If these two books were released in the same way D&D books get released right now... 50 years of D&D players would come to the table expecting Euro-medieval fantasy and not Eastern fantasy... so odds I think are good that if you put both books side-by-side any 'D&D West' would outsell 'D&D East' through no fault other than people's expectations and the numbers/locations available for purchase.

DND East wouldn't be called Dungeons and Dragons; thats the first thing that'd have to go if you want be assumptive that the game is effectively perfect representation wise.

At which point you'd then counter argue that obviously such a game wouldn't sell as well as DND does, but that isn't much of a counter argument because that still isn't an indicator that the game is failing because of its representation.

After all, such games that do do various representations very well already undersell compared to DND, and Id dare you to criticize those games for daring to undersell while being representative.

The big clash for the monk is that weapons and armor are practically the norm in both. I couldn't think of any well known characters who don't use weapons or do something skin to casting spells except ones with heavy animal features or cybernetics that they use (often use with weapons too).

The only character I could even think of was saitama from one punch man & it's especially notable for being a deconstruction of the genere.


I give you

Spoiler: exhibit A & B

View attachment 289902

When the class concept of avoiding weapons and armor in a world where they are commonly used even by those who are primarily nonweapon users matches a years long broadcast mocking from one of those cultures it says something that shouldn't be ignored.

As to batman not using a "gun", he absolutely uses weapons and armor. Batman along with everyone else even uses them in batman ninja.

Much of the unarmed shtick comes from how kung fu tends to be represented in the West. In a Western context, a person using weapons is not exotic, its the norm.

A person only using their fists, however, is exotic and exciting compared to the norm.

The film Roadhouse for instance is near entirely steeped in a very traditional American context for how people fight each other; weapons and good old fashioned American fisticuffs (imprecise, wild haymakers, etc)

That Dalton and evil Not-Dalton are practicing martial artists of an unspecified type gives them an exotic allure they wouldn't have otherwise if they didn't go that route. And even Garrett, while not a martial artist, does correlate to the "old master" trope in how hes presented and interacts with the story.

Weapon usage in kung fu only gets into the West when the movies are super popular (Ip Man pushes it in the later movies) or when its taken to a full-on Wuxia context. (CRHD, Hero, etc)

We don't get much weapons in the west otherwise.

 

[mamba]

And no... 'D&D East' could easily be just as good a game as 'D&D West' (if not better) and still not be as popular

instead of separating into East and West, they should make the classes generic enough to fit both, imo they mostly are anyway, and they all are far enough removed from their origins by necessity anyway. The rest is flavor, not mechanics.

If I want to play a Samurai, I pick whatever class / subclass I think best represents that to me, I do not need a separate class for that.
Pretty sure Sorcerers etc. are also not just western inventions

 

[Charlaquin]

I give you

Spoiler: exhibit A & B

View attachment 289902

When the class concept of avoiding weapons and armor in a world where they are commonly used even by those who are primarily nonweapon users matches a years long broadcast mocking from one of those cultures it says something that shouldn't be ignored.

Umm… Are you seriously trying to suggest that Rock Lee and Might Guy are meant to mock non-weapon martial arts? Because if so, you couldn’t be more off-base. They are celebrations of non-weapon martial arts, and of the power of hard work and optimism in the face of adversity, and they are beloved for it, especially in Japan. Rock Lee was initially supposed to die in the fight with Kimimaru, but the publisher wouldn’t allow it because the character was too popular. Not only did he get written back into the series, he got his own spin-off.

Just because the characters are goofy, that doesn’t mean they’re meant to be objects of ridicule. That’s a very western attitude.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Did it honestly take only 3 pages for people to propose segregation as a solution to a cultural sensitivity issue?