Assassin Mechanics Questions

[eriktheguy]

Players in my campaign:
Build up shrouds for high to-hit attacks

Build up shrouds on priority targets (like artillery) as they make their way towards them.

Build up shrouds on any other target as they kill minions.

Build up shrouds on an enemy before combat (i.e. while stealthed behind a guard). This one is pretty much the essence of the assassin. While your party is talking with the goblins, you are watching the movements of the leader, looking for weaknesses. A sudden powerful strike to start off a battle.

*I don't know if it's legal to build shrouds outside of combat, or if the target of a shroud becomes aware, but I let it slide. It makes more sense and fits the flavor of the assassin. It makes for some exciting scenes in combat.

 

[yesnomu]

*I don't know if it's legal to build shrouds outside of combat, or if the target of a shroud becomes aware, but I let it slide. It makes more sense and fits the flavor of the assassin. It makes for some exciting scenes in combat.

There is, in fact, a feat for that: Hidden Insight. It's a stupid, tax-y feat for an ability that should be inherent to the shroud mechanic, but it exists nonetheless.

 

[eriktheguy]

It's a stupid, tax-y feat for an ability that should be inherent to the shroud mechanic

This
and I'll continue to use shroud like this without the feat in my campaign.
Thanks for the clarification.

 

[jbear]

agreed. I made this feat free for my two assassins.

I also allow them to transfer unused shrouds to new targets when their shroud target dies.

As far as strikers go, although awesomely flavoursome, the assassin is not amongst the elite of damage dealers by any stretch.

At least setting up an opening massive strike makes them unique and not losing shrouds when their target dies means they can be more of a team player. Others don't have to worry about wasting the assassins shrouds if they crit and kill the enemy outright.

Some good advice here on how best to invoke shrouds. The daily that allows you to place two shrouds per round on your target is a very nice one and the feat that lets you place two shrouds once per encounter is a good one to have too. Multiclassing into rogue fits nicely mechanically and flavourwise and lets you dish out an extra 2d6 of striker damage per combat (lets say on one of the rouds you are building up your shrouds.

Once your in the fray though you're probably going to want to invoke every second round, especially if your DM plays it by the book... nothing worse than waiting 4 rounds to land a finishing blow on a big nasty, and the barabarian charges in with a charge build and lands a crit with a high crit weapon demolishing your foe with one hit and sending your 4 rounds of patience into outerspace.

 

[Turtlejay]

Do those that think shrouding shouldn't break cover also allow their rangers to Quarry while hidden? What about allowing Warlocks to Curse, or Paladins to mark?

To me, the problem is that Assassin (class) != Assassin (job title). Did anyone legitimately think that the Warden moonlighted as the boss of a prison? It is a descriptive term, and using the argument that 'An Assassin should be able to kill from the darkness, like real assassins' holds no water, in the same way that 'I'm wearing plate, I'm impervious to the blows of a monk'.

I don't think the reasoning behind giving the feat away for free is sound, nor do I think it is fair to other classes who want to be able to do a similar thing.

Jay

 

[eriktheguy]

Do those that think shrouding shouldn't break cover also allow their rangers to Quarry while hidden? What about allowing Warlocks to Curse, or Paladins to mark?

To me, the problem is that Assassin (class) != Assassin (job title). Did anyone legitimately think that the Warden moonlighted as the boss of a prison? It is a descriptive term, and using the argument that 'An Assassin should be able to kill from the darkness, like real assassins' holds no water, in the same way that 'I'm wearing plate, I'm impervious to the blows of a monk'.

I don't think the reasoning behind giving the feat away for free is sound, nor do I think it is fair to other classes who want to be able to do a similar thing.

Jay

Yes that's true. Its generally better to make flavor match the rules rather than make the rules match the flavor. For example, knocking a slime prone doesn't make sense, but you could easily describe it as 'discombobulating the slime by knocking its internal organs about'.
For assassins though, I made an exception. Allowing people to build up shrouds without starting a combat or breaking stealth makes sense to me, it fits the flavor REALLY well, it rewards smart play, and it doesn't seem game breaking. So I went with this option because I thought it was more fun.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Do those that think shrouding shouldn't break cover also allow their rangers to Quarry while hidden? What about allowing Warlocks to Curse, or Paladins to mark?

To me, the problem is that Assassin (class) != Assassin (job title). Did anyone legitimately think that the Warden moonlighted as the boss of a prison? It is a descriptive term, and using the argument that 'An Assassin should be able to kill from the darkness, like real assassins' holds no water, in the same way that 'I'm wearing plate, I'm impervious to the blows of a monk'.

I don't think the reasoning behind giving the feat away for free is sound, nor do I think it is fair to other classes who want to be able to do a similar thing.

Jay

It never came up, but I see no reason why it shouldn't work for Quarry or Curse. (Though I kinda like the idea of the victim feeling that it's cursed.)

With the Divine Challenge, the flavor and the game effect just don't match, nor does the intent. The intent of mark-related effects is to give someone motivation to attack you and not someone else. If I don't even know that I could attack you; i can hardly be motivated. Quarry, Curse and Shrouds are also only affecting you actively when you are under attack. Divine Challenge "hits" you when you are doing something on your own, applying penalties, taking damage.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes that's true. Its generally better to make flavor match the rules rather than make the rules match the flavor. For example, knocking a slime prone doesn't make sense, but you could easily describe it as 'discombobulating the slime by knocking its internal organs about'.
For assassins though, I made an exception. Allowing people to build up shrouds without starting a combat or breaking stealth makes sense to me, it fits the flavor REALLY well, it rewards smart play, and it doesn't seem game breaking. So I went with this option because I thought it was more fun.

Well it IS a good idea, which is why it is offered as a feat.

But then, Taclords don't automatically get Tactical Assault, and that's pretty much ubiquitous to them.

It's fair, because shrouding unseen with stealth or before a battle's a feature of one -kind- of assassin anyways.

It's like saying a poison-using assassin should always get the poison-boosting feat for free because they're good with poisons, and it's a good idea to use them. No, it's a good idea to get the feat.

 

[unan oranis]

Well it IS a good idea, which is why it is offered as a feat.

But then, Taclords don't automatically get Tactical Assault, and that's pretty much ubiquitous to them.

It's fair, because shrouding unseen with stealth or before a battle's a feature of one -kind- of assassin anyways.

It's like saying a poison-using assassin should always get the poison-boosting feat for free because they're good with poisons, and it's a good idea to use them. No, it's a good idea to get the feat.

I agree with you, but sympathize with the other dm's (I have an assassin in one of my campaigns too).

Perhaps a home-brewed magic item slot-taker-upper, or weapon, that provided the benefit of the feat would be a good halfway point.

 

[Turtlejay]

That's kinda where I was going, but clumsily. Assassins get the feat available because some assassins might want to be the sneak and stab kind.

And RAW, a creature is aware of powers used on them, even if it doesn't make sense. Some, like curse and mark do. Quarry doesn't, really. The way I see my Assassin's shrouds they certainly would be visible. A deepening of shadow around the target, and the more get stacked, the more he feels a chill, like someone just walked over his grave. And quarry? The ranger sees a flaw in his enemy's fighting style and exploits it? I'll take my shrouds any day.

Jay