D&D 5E Assassinate

[Monk55]

It's pretty simple. The target detects the attacker when s/he is hit or missed by the attack as per the rules for unseen attackers. Narratively this occurs because the target can trace the path of the arrow back to its source. Hit or missed in this context should be understood as the moment that it becomes certain that the target will be hit or missed, i.e. after the attack roll, but before the damage roll, if any (i.e. the same point at which a wizard would cast Shield).

EDIT: Incidentally, this is why an interpretation that has surprise ending when a target becomes aware of its attacker is unworkable. Because the target always becomes aware of an attacker at the moment of the attack, it would be impossible to hit a creature and for that creature to remain surprised. This is obviously not the intent.

I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding your point. Allow me to ask a basic question: Can a target be surprised only when the target loses initiative to a stealthy/hidden attacker?

 

[Hriston]

I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding your point. Allow me to ask a basic question: Can a target be surprised only when the target loses initiative to a stealthy/hidden attacker?

No, a target becomes surprised regardless of initiative as long as all attackers are hidden. However, initiative tells us when the target recovers and is no longer surprised, at least that's my reading.

 

[Arial Black]

For argument's sake, let's assume that he isn't surprised, as your example seems to suggest. First of all, how does the defender know, at the beginning of his turn, what the assassin is going to do? On your turn, you don't have the opportunity to wait and see what your opponent is doing and then act in response and have it still be your turn. In game terms, the closest you could come to this would be to Ready an action.

Second, since he has the initiative, why wouldn't the greatsword wielding defender run around the corner himself if what he wants to do is attack the assassin? It's only 30 feet. Most characters have that much movement. Maybe I don't get your point.

I was addressing your point:-

All turns in the round are simultaneous. If the target has the higher initiative that means his turn is resolved before the assassin's. It does not mean that the assassin does not begin attacking until after the target's turn is over. Just that the attack doesn't hit until after the target's turn is over.

Although, conceptually, the action is non-stop and continuous, this doesn't mean that every action within it happens simultaneously with every other action in it. In real life combats, no-one takes 'turns'. However, some stuff happens before other stuff, and some stuff happens in response to other stuff and would not have happened otherwise.

The game can only cope with all this by going in turns. We know that this is an approximation, and we know it represents continuous combat. But we really cannot say that all of the turns happen at the same time, both because the combatants most definitely do act in turns in the game, but also because it accurately models some stuff happening in response to other stuff.

Therefore, the target with the higher initiative does not automatically become aware of what the assassin hasn't done yet, when he doesn't even know the assassin is there!

Certainly, two gunfighters in a fast-draw contest can see each other going for their guns and react faster, because they can already see each other. This does not apply to a surprise attack. If one gunfighter was to draw and fire when the other has his back turned, sure, have a Stealth/Perception contest; if the target is not surprised (because his victory in the contested roll means that he hears the gun being drawn) then his faster initiative means he can turn and fire at the dirty backshooter! But if the victim failed the contest, he is not only surprised, he could not attack the backshooter even if he could act on his first turn, because he doesn't know that there is a backshooter! He will be unsurprised if he hears the shot (he now notices a threat), and his initiative total is neither here nor there in that regard.

 

[Arial Black]

No, a target becomes surprised regardless of initiative as long as all attackers are hidden. However, initiative tells us when the target recovers and is no longer surprised, at least that's my reading.

It's obvious that you genuinely believe that. I don't read it the same way. I see no rules support for that, and much better rules support for the idea that you are surprised when you don't notice a threat (RAW) means that you are not surprised when you do.

I also see problems utilising your reading which are not a problem when using mine. So far, no-one has shown any problem caused by running the game the way I read the surprise rules.

 

[Hriston]

I was addressing your point:-

But it doesn't seem that you are trying very hard to understand my point, given your response.

Although, conceptually, the action is non-stop and continuous, this doesn't mean that every action within it happens simultaneously with every other action in it. In real life combats, no-one takes 'turns'. However, some stuff happens before other stuff, and some stuff happens in response to other stuff and would not have happened otherwise.

I didn't say that every action happens simultaneously. I said the turns are simultaneous. Perhaps I should have said, roughly simultaneous. Stuff happening before other stuff is determined by initiative whenever it matters. To ensure this, the movement and actions taken by the participant with the higher initiative are resolved before those taken by the participant with the lower initiative. This keeps things orderly. It doesn't mean that everything that happens on one turn happens before everything
that happens on the next turn. There is overlap.

The game can only cope with all this by going in turns. We know that this is an approximation, and we know it represents continuous combat. But we really cannot say that all of the turns happen at the same time, both because the combatants most definitely do act in turns in the game, but also because it accurately models some stuff happening in response to other stuff.

If each participant waited for the participant before her/him in initiative order to finish his/her turn before taking her/his own, then the combat round would take far longer than the roughly six seconds that the rules state it does. Please imagine a round of combat with twenty participants, each of which take their turns on a different count of initiative. If the round is six seconds in duration then each of those turns lasts only 0.3 seconds if, as you say, the turns do not happen at the same time. It's quite clear from the movement rates that each turn is meant to inhabit the entire six seconds of the round. What is the narrative reason in your games that combatants are able to complete their turns at lightning speed and then idly stand around for the other 5.7 seconds and watch the others take their turns (tongue in cheek)?

Therefore, the target with the higher initiative does not automatically become aware of what the assassin hasn't done yet, when he doesn't even know the assassin is there!

You keep asserting this, as if you're refuting some claim I have made. I never said the target becomes aware of the assassin before he knows the assassin is there. That would be absurd!

Certainly, two gunfighters in a fast-draw contest can see each other going for their guns and react faster, because they can already see each other. This does not apply to a surprise attack. If one gunfighter was to draw and fire when the other has his back turned, sure, have a Stealth/Perception contest; if the target is not surprised (because his victory in the contested roll means that he hears the gun being drawn) then his faster initiative means he can turn and fire at the dirty backshooter! But if the victim failed the contest, he is not only surprised, he could not attack the backshooter even if he could act on his first turn, because he doesn't know that there is a backshooter! He will be unsurprised if he hears the shot (he now notices a threat), and his initiative total is neither here nor there in that regard.

That's funny, because the way I see it he would be quite surprised to hear the shot! What reason for surprise would he have before that moment? Why would he be surprised to not notice a threat? Was he expecting a threat to be there and was surprised when it wasn't? I don't think surprise means what you think it means.

 

[Hriston]

So far, no-one has shown any problem caused by running the game the way I read the surprise rules.

I did just up-thread from here when I said, "Incidentally, this is why an interpretation that has surprise ending when a target becomes aware of its attacker is unworkable. Because the target always becomes aware of an attacker at the moment of the attack, it would be impossible to hit a creature and for that creature to remain surprised. This is obviously not the intent."

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=466314#ixzz3kJVFnBbr

I'll apply it to your gunfight example so the problem's clear. Let's assume the backshooter is an assassin, and that the victim has failed to perceive the backshooter drawing his pistol, which he finds surprising.

Just kidding. I know what you mean, he's "surprised".

So now when the backshooter shoots, and the victim hears a bang, he knows there is a threat and becomes "unsurprised". Thus the backshooter's attack does not qualify for the auto-crit portion of the Assassinate feature.

If you don't believe me, read it in the rules.

If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

This means that if we use your definition of surprise, that an assassin will never be able to use his/her auto-crit, because when he/she attacks his/her victim, they will always become "unsurprised".

 

[Athinar]

So now when the backshooter shoots, and the victim hears a bang, he knows there is a threat and becomes "unsurprised". Thus the backshooter's attack does not qualify for the auto-crit portion of the Assassinate feature..

Here is the Problem with the Victim hearing the "Bang", The Bullet travels faster than sound, by the time the Victim hears the Bang the bullet hits the target

Surprise, the damage is done

 

[Arial Black]

Yeah, they become unsurprised after the first attack is resolved.

So, no problem.

 

[Athinar]

So if you go with the Initiative Roll and the Victim is surprised and the Victim wins the Initiative, the Assassin does not take his turn (Does Not Attack) and the Victim is not surprised (and is still hidden) because the Assassin does not attack (Sounds like Time travel and you go back to kill your father when he is a baby)
The Assassin waits a few minutes and try's again to surprise and win initiative

 

[MG.0]

Here is the Problem with the Victim hearing the "Bang", The Bullet travels faster than sound, by the time the Victim hears the Bang the bullet hits the target Surprise, the damage is done

If you allow initiave to determine when surprise ends, then it isn't literally hearing the "Bang" that allows the target to be unsurprised if he beats the assassin's initiative. Narratively it's perfectly acceptable to suggest the assassin gave himself away during the process of attacking. So yes, the the assassin was stealthy enough to surprise the target, but he was too slow or clumsy on the actual attack. The target notices the attack in progress and can react.