D&D 5E Assassinate

[Hriston]

I'm not trying to be provocative here, but I did want to respond to a couple things that were said in Monk55's final post.

Now you've jumped the shark, dude!

I've never been compared to Happy Days before. All in all it was a pretty good show, shark jumping and all, so I really can't complain. Nevertheless, I prefer to think that I'm being compared to the Fonz! Seriously, jumping that shark was pretty ballsy, especially considering the injury Fonzie had already sustained doing the barrel jump. Way to go Fonzie! I hope the mods don't censor me, but if you think I'm going to just "give it up" because you don't understand or don't like what I'm saying, you can go "Sit on it!"

So if I use a more simulationist approach as opposed to your abstractions, then the "hit" rule changes?

Hit points as meat is no more simulationist than hit points as everything else that gives a character the ability to survive a battle. It really depends on what you want to simulate. As I pointed out in my previous thread hit points as meat only doesn't really make too much sense, but whatever they represent to you, its clear that the rules are written in a broad enough fashion that you can narrate a "hit", meaning a successful attack roll, in any way that makes sense in the fiction you are simulating.

 

[Hriston]

Is it just me that thinks speed + stealth is a nice thematic enhancement to the assassin class?

What's missing is a class oriented way for assassins to boost their reaction times.

I think the huge incentive that Rogues have to max out their Dexterity is enough of a boost, but you're not alone in thinking that the dependence of the assassin's signature ability on speed as well as stealth enhances the flavor of the class. I said as much in post #67 of this thread.

It seems to simulate the fiction of a Rogue, that relies on stealth, being successful when he is also quick. Since Dexterity is the Rogue's primary ability, I'm not sure what the problem is with his success being tied to that ability, unless you also want him to be successful when he uses that ability poorly. I understand that he has already successfully used his Dexterity, and skill with Stealth, to hide, but for the assassin to get the benefit of Assassinate he must strike quickly.

 

[Hriston]

*blink blink*

Er... am I missing something or reading something incorrectly? To me it sounds like folks are saying "During a Surprise round, roll Initiative to see when people go during that Surprise round". In other words, there is no such thing as Surprise, because even if you successfully sneak up on someone who is completely unaware of you, as soon as you 'act', you roll initiative. I could "surprise" someone, then loose initiative, meaning I never surprised that someone in the first place. Why even roll stealth, perception, etc checks when it's all coming down to an Initiative roll? ... I must be missing something here... Can someone fill me in?

To me, Surprise is like the "Deer in the Headlights" scenario. You're a deer. You just finished munching on some sweet, sweet, luscious grass at the side of a bend in the road. You look and see more on the other side. You walk up the bank, and start heading across. Suddenly a speeding electric car (that you didn't hear or see coming around the bend, obviously) comes. You stare, wide-eyed at the headlights...your deer brain races... What tha?!? Is that...? I should run...wait... Forward? Back! No, hold on a sec...is it even coming my way? Maybe I should just... *BLAMMO!!* You're struck by a car. You were "Surprised"...all the way up to and including when you got hit. You saw it coming straight at you...and you did nothing. Why? You were SURPRISED! You didn't get to roll Initiative because, well, you were surprised. You didn't get an Action. You didn't get a Bonus Action. You didn't get a Reaction. You were surprised....that's the entire point of being surprised, isn't it? To not be able to do anything?

In the preceding thread, the assassin jumping out and stabbing the wizard...if the wizard failed to detect the assassin (re: the wizard was surprised), he can't "do anything" because he's the deer and the assassin is the car.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

You're describing how surprise worked in 3.x. In that edition there was a surprise round that preceded the first round of combat in which those who were unaware of their opponents (i.e. surprised) did not roll initiative and could not do anything. Despite its name, however, the surprise round was not a complete round. Those who were able to roll initiative for this "round" were unable to take a Full-Round Action. They could only take either a Standard Action or a Move Action, not both. In 5E, this period of time is equivalent to the part of the first round that happens before the surprised creature's initiative count comes up. So it's essential to the way 5E's combat is designed that initiative is rolled before the first round, because there is no "surprise round", and the length of surprise is dependent on initiative.

I've read a lot of opinions that a surprised creature could not roll initiative because they're surprised, as if rolling initiative represents something the creature is actually doing in the fiction. I think of it more as reaching into the fiction from the meta-game space at the table and taking the creature's vital signs, or something, to see what its reaction time or reflexes are going to be like for the duration of the combat. Obviously everyone involved, even a surprised creature, has a pulse and whatnot that would give us some indication of their combat readiness without them needing to do anything. Hopefully that helps.

 

[MG.0]

I think of it more as reaching into the fiction from the meta-game space at the table and taking the creature's vital signs, or something, to see what its reaction time or reflexes are going to be like for the duration of the combat. Obviously everyone involved, even a surprised creature, has a pulse and whatnot that would give us some indication of their combat readiness without them needing to do anything. Hopefully that helps.

Bingo.

 

[Zalabim]

Considering Assassins also get a disguise ability, I'd assume they don't have to be hidden to surprise someone. Since the rules literally do not say when surprise ends, it's left up to the DM to decide. For my own part, I'll say that when I am surprised, the sensation goes away a little after I can react, so I'd allow the assassin a little more time to use their only worthwhile class feature if they've already managed to actually surprise an enemy.

 

[Paraxis]

I went searching for anything else that works with the surprise mechanic and found some.

Before I get into this I am still a firm believer that surprise ends when the creatures first turn is over for all the reasons I have stated before. Also not sure if the following supports that opinion or goes against it.

The bugbear special ability

Surprise Attack. If the bugbear surprises a creature and hits it with an attack during the first round of combat, the target takes an extra 7 (2d6) damage from the attack.

The doppelganger special ability

Surprise Attack. If the doppelganger surprises a creature and hits it with an attack during the first round of combat, the target takes an extra 10 (3d6) damage from the attack.

So apparently there are abilities that end at the conclusion of a round and those abilities have the word surprise in their name.

But the Assassin NPC has the special ability

Assassinate. During its first turn, the assassin has advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn. Any hit the assassin scores against a surprised creature is a critical hit.

An exact copy of the rogue assassin class ability.

So either this just confuses things, shows that at some point (maybe in Alpha) that surprise was supposed to end at the conclusion of the first round, or shows that if they wanted the assassinate feature to last until the end of the first round they would have worded it exactly like the bugbear and doppleganger ability.

I had stated before that there was nothing that ended at the conclusion of a round and felt I would be a hypocrite if I didn't point out that in fact on that, I was wrong. This probably won't change anyones mind on this issue just giving more information.

As a side note gaze attacks of basilisks, medusa, and umber hulks also interact with the surprise rules.

 

[Arial Black]

In the case of an assassin who is completely hidden, it would have to be a very extreme example before I disallowed the target's reaction. An invisible, silenced, magically odorless bowman firing from point blank range might do it. Even then there are narrative ways to allow the reaction anyway: A stray leaf blows into the assassin's vicinity and stops when it hits him, giving the target just enough of a hint that he instinctively shifts his weight, causing the assassin's carefully crafted death blow to become a normal attack.

For me, the rules are not divorced from the internal reality of the game world that they purport to simulate. Things, for me, have to make sense.

A game can certainly say that 'this condition depends on that d20 roll', but for me it has to make sense that what the d20 roll represents can logically have an impact on the condition in question.

If there is, using your example, an invisible, silenced, odourless bowman firing at point blank, whether or not a stray leaf that could possibly give him away, actually gives him away, depends on factors like, 'is the victim able to see the leaf' and 'is he wise enough to associate that leaf's behaviour with an invisible creature', and that is represented in the game by a Wisdom(Perception) check.

'How fast the victims reactions are' is simply not a factor in his ability to see the leaf or work out what the leaf's behaviour could mean.

 

[pming]

*blink blink*

@MG.0 and @Hriston ...ok then. If that's how you interpret what the word "Surprise" means in relationship to the intent of the Surprise rules, knock yourself out. I'm going to now put a fake smile on my face and slowly back away towards the doorway...

EDIT: Just found the 'tweetage' left by Mike Merals... seems he thinks you guys' stance is correct. *shrug* Nutty...

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[MG.0]

For me, the rules are not divorced from the internal reality of the game world that they purport to simulate. Things, for me, have to make sense.

A game can certainly say that 'this condition depends on that d20 roll', but for me it has to make sense that what the d20 roll represents can logically have an impact on the condition in question.

If there is, using your example, an invisible, silenced, odourless bowman firing at point blank, whether or not a stray leaf that could possibly give him away, actually gives him away, depends on factors like, 'is the victim able to see the leaf' and 'is he wise enough to associate that leaf's behaviour with an invisible creature', and that is represented in the game by a Wisdom(Perception) check.

'How fast the victims reactions are' is simply not a factor in his ability to see the leaf or work out what the leaf's behaviour could mean.

I agree.

The internal reality of the game world means a great deal to me. Notice I said I might not grant the reaction in that case. I was just throwing together the most over the top scenario I could think of off the top of my head and mentioned that you could explain it narratively if you really wanted to. With some thought it could probably be tied back to the assassin's initiative as well, although it is an admittedly extreme example.

 

[MG.0]

*blink blink*

@MG.0 and @Hriston ...ok then. If that's how you interpret what the word "Surprise" means in relationship to the intent of the Surprise rules, knock yourself out. I'm going to now put a fake smile on my face and slowly back away towards the doorway...

EDIT: Just found the 'tweetage' left by Mike Merals... seems he thinks you guys' stance is correct. *shrug* Nutty...

^_^

Paul L. Ming

*shrug*

I still think it plays smoother than the alternative. Like I said, the actual in-game differences are almost negligible. It's mostly a *does this feel right to you* kind of thing. To me it is the most natural interpretations. I don't find it strange that other people have other ideas.