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At-will class powers ruining my archetypes

I agree it does cause a bit of MAD. Here is an interesting thing though. 4e is all about maximizing your one stat 20 nearly all the time if you have to go 18.
And yet somehow there doesn't seem to be a shortage of dwarven fighters (judging by comments in these forums). 16 is perfectly acceptable for a starting primary score.

Buying an 18 with the standard point-buy (in order to get a 20 with a racial bonus) requires severely gimping your other stats, and thus your defenses. It's a trade-off, and not a particularly good one IMO (especially if you're going to be in melee).
 

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I am not insulted I just feel it is kind of asinine that I would have to throw out my credentials to not be dismissed offhandedly.
[META DISCUSSION]
Offhandedly? If your opinion and ideas were dismissed offhandedly, we wouldn't discuss is over multiple pages.

Offhandedly is this:
"Doesn't look like you tried the game. Next!"

But that's not what has happening. People are explaining that their experiences don't match your opinions or experience. Apparently you are not bringing your point or opinion across, at least not in a way that convinces others. That doesn't mean you're dismissed offhandedly. It just means people have different opinions. And some try to figure out how these different opinions can exist.
[/META DISCUSSION]
 

And yet somehow there doesn't seem to be a shortage of dwarven fighters (judging by comments in these forums). 16 is perfectly acceptable for a starting primary score.

Buying an 18 with the standard point-buy (in order to get a 20 with a racial bonus) requires severely gimping your other stats, and thus your defenses. It's a trade-off, and not a particularly good one IMO (especially if you're going to be in melee).

Let's check out the difference -

Assumptions
  • Two standard point buy 8th level fighters.
  • Both use long swords.
  • Assume +2 Items across the board.
  • one handed weapon talent for both.

Human Fighter (Strength Boost)

  • Initial Ability Scores - 20 Strength, 13 Constitution, 10 Dexterity, 8 Intelligence, 13 Wisdom, 10 Charisma.
  • He raised Strength twice, and Constitution and Wisdom once.
  • Current Ability Scores - 22 Strength, 14 Constitution, 10 Dexterity, 8 Intelligence, 14 Wisdom, 10 charisma.
  • Attack Bonus with +2 Long Sword +16
  • Attack Bonus on Opportunity Attacks +18
  • hp 71, surge value 17, 10 healing surges. Up to 241 hp over the course of the day, barring leader abilities.
  • Fortitude Defense 23, Reflex Defense 17, Will Defense 19.

Dwarven Fighter
  • Initial Ability Scores : 16 Strength, 17 Constitution, 10 Dexterity, 8 Intelligence, 16 Wisdom, 10 Charisma.
  • He raised Strength and Wisdom twice.
  • Final Ability Scores: 18 Strength, 17 Constitution, 10 Dexterity, 8 Intelligence, 18 Wisdom, 10 Charisma.
  • Attack Bonus with +2 Long Sword +14
  • Attack Bonus on Opportunity Attacks +18
  • hp 74, surge value 18, 11 healing surges. Up to 272 hp over the course of the day, barring leader abilities.
  • Fortitude Defense 22, Reflex Defense 16, Will Defense 20.

This comparison doesn't account for skills, and the vagaries of individual powers. The Dwarven fighter is only slightly behind the human in attacks (although equal with opportunity attacks), but has one more surge, and a higher Will Defense.

I'd say the 16 Strength build is slightly suboptimal, but of the sort that won't get noticed that much during play, especially if he picks up feats and powers to take advantage of his Wisdom - which there should be more of.
 
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Let me first say, excellent analysis.

Yes but also by that level (30) you should have some magic items that would fill in the other 12 rounds of combat. Not to mention your daily powers. I agree, the advantage of 4e, "EVERY CLASS ATTACKS THE SAME" and this is how this system will work. As you go up in level your level bonus will out-weigh your stat bonus (in most cases). The characters will be much more potent with a weapon than in previous editions. This really starts to separate around paragon tier when the level bonus begins to outstrip the stat bonus.

If the we had BAB like in previous editions I don't think an idea like this would have worked.

However, monster design is much different in 4e than it was in 3x. In 4e, Monsters have their attack bonuses going up at just about every level. The 1/2 level bonus, plus magic items, plus your abilities being updated at every level ending 4, 8 and 1. In 3x, monster defenses don't ramp up that much, because the people with the highest BAB are EXPECTED to hit the first time, it's the later iterative attacks that might end up missing.

However, in 4e, your attack roll is currently expected to be close to 50/50 the entire time. In fact, even with maxing out your stat the whole way up, it would still fall behind based on where you started. So even if your 1/2 level counts "more" than your ability score, that doesn't mean that your attack roll is going to be high enough to actually hit anything.

Yes and no, I agree that it could take a combat more rounds to complete... well maybe, remember you now begin with 3 encounter powers. So if those blast off in the first few rounds you could be left with just the scraps, it could make combats fewer rounds it depends... But in general if the fight gets past the encounter powers initial push it could drag on.

It may make earlier encounters a bit quicker. But if the goal is to NEVER have to use your at-will powers, that seems to be a bit of a weird fix. "Give them enough encounter powers to never have to use the at-will powers that they never want to use."

I agree it does cause a bit of MAD. Here is an interesting thing though. 4e is all about maximizing your one stat 20 nearly all the time if you have to go 18. If you introduce MAD, this may be a little difficult for some to ponder, you actually lower the arms race for everyone including those that have to focus solely on a single stat. If a 16 is good enough for one character it can be good enough for another - including the fighter who only really has to focus on a single stat. I am not saying that every fighter will be made like this but they could be made like this. In this case MAD, may actually may be good for 4e.

Sorry ... but it's very rare for people to actully go with a 20 in their primary attack stat. Almost most that go for optimization go with 18 [after modifiers], because it allows you to have a secondary stat, that applies to your class. There are feats as well that require a bit more spread in your stats. And then there are the non-AC defenses. If you put 20 into your main attack stat, 2 of your NADs are going to suffer, your secondary class features suffer.

At the moment, people have reasons to go with 16-20 for their main attack stat. If you have a cetain race/class combo, you may go with 16 for your attack stat. Most go with 18 by taking advantage of a racial bonus so they can still have points to spend elsewhere. It is possible for some to go with a 20.

The arms race isn't some imaginary thing between players where, if all the players agreed that 16 was "enough" they would solve the issue. The monsters are designed assuming people would be optimizing their characters.
 

If it is not known this is a discussion about at-will class powers. Specifically we are talking about what the game would do if we removed them completely. My argument is that it would actually be a good thing. Others have argued that removing them would affect the game in a harsh and negative way.

As a trade off, to removing the at-will powers, I thought that increasing the number of encounter powers by 2 (make the 2 lost at-wills 1st level encounters basically) would be a good way to offset. My arguments come from this assumption so don’t think I am giving nothing back to my players.

I will try and elaborate some of the more pertinent discussions relating to the point at hand. Just like the system some of the effects of this change are good some are bad. So I don’t want there to be an assumption that - I think that everything is perfect with a cherry on top. I do believe the good effects outweigh the bad.

First of all, having at-will powers in the game removes the need to be decent at basic attacks. How do you become decent at a basic attack? You pump your dexterity and or strength at character creation. Strength allows for basic melee and heavy thrown weapon attacks and dexterity allows for basic ranged and light thrown weapon attacks.

The concern is that if this fundamental is altered, it may collapse the game and no one will hit or do a proper amount of damage to contribute in a meaningful way.

I am not sure this would be the case. You would have 2 additional encounter powers. Encounter powers are much more powerful and would quickly knock out a lot more creatures. A controller for instance would actually be pretty good under this system imo. They could hit multiple creatures with spells that actually do more than scratch them. So despite the wizards INT based limitation they are actually contributing more with three encounter powers than they would with a myriad of crap at-wills. This could revitalize the controller role.

Another important factor is, in 4e a character’s vanilla attacks are their at-will attacks. Having a special attack at will is not very special. They are not very interesting after doing them ten times every combat. It is like a one trick pony that is given a bunch of tools that can only be used in two ways. It removes imagination because when you have a cool thing like reaping strike of eldritch blast why would you ever pull out a bow throw a dagger or do anything of the sort? Also if all you have to do is rely on a basic attack you are more likely to try a “DMG page 42 trick”.

Removing at-will powers opens up design space for character types that are currently sub-par by the RAW. It doesn't matter if you are martial, arcane, divine, primal, elemental, shadow, ki or whatever other power sources they are going to come up with. Characters are limited by the at-wills that they are tied to at character creation.

This makes having characters that do not fit the mold of those prefab at-wills outside the ability for the RAW to deal with and a limitation of the game system.

The perfect example is the elf cleric archer of correlon. This character is not a very viable build. I mean, what would a cleric be doing with a bow let alone a high dex. A ranged cleric is a lazer cleric pure and simple and that only requires uni-pumped wisdom to be effective. With making basic attacks the standard instead of lazers it says, "Ok I can make an archer cleric because I am not losing anything for doing it." Thus it opens up many more character concepts that were previously unavailable.


A large portion of this discussion has revolved around stats-
Forcing players to spend stat points at character creation on dexterity or strength forces them to lower their ultra high bloated uni-stat. If they do not do this they will either be good at their powers or good at basic attacks. This has a number of effects, five out of twelve of the PHB classes/builds will be effected by this because their primary stats are not strength or dexterity.

STR
Primary for Fighters
Primary for two-weapon Rangers
Primary for melee Clerics
Primary for Warlords
Primary for strength Paladins

DEX
Primary for Rogues
Primary for archer Rangers

CON
Primary for infernal Warlocks

INT
Primary for Wizards

WIS
Primary for lazer Clerics

CHA
Primary for charisma Paladins
Primary for fey Warlocks

4e makes a lot of assumptions about your stats. They are hard coded into the system. Chiefly, you will always be attacking with your highest stat, always (unless you made poor character creation choices). There is a 50% attack roll assumption and much of that assumption is based off of having a high stat by my estimation. You need an 18 or 20 to be competent. Feats provide only a minor boost to the power of your stat’s game effect so it is innately more effective to boost a stat than to select a feat. So the system forcibly directs you into having an uber stat, most notably the 50% attack assumption.

In previous editions, base attacks were based upon strength or dexterity only. So you knew that if you were going to be shooting a bow or swinging a sword you needed strength or dexterity at least a little. Additionally, you know that the "to-hit" rate for your spells was much higher than it is now (saving throws were relatively easily failed). You could afford a compromise on your stat line and spread it out and take two 16's or even a 16 and several 14's and still be competent.

Now if you want to be good in a class you need to invest in its primary stat and one of its secondary ones and you are done. By lowering the stats it does the following. Potentially lowers the stats arms race between characters, if it ok for a character to have a 16 then it might be ok for the fighter to have a 16 too. This is a relative and flighty change but it does change perception on what you need.
 

The perfect example is the elf cleric archer of correlon. This character is not a very viable build.
And yet, several people have created & played this character in actual games.

I mean, what would a cleric be doing with a bow let alone a high dex.
Elves start with proficiency in the longbow. Elves also get a bonus to DEX and you want either a decent DEX or INT for your Reflex defense. And clerics don't have much use for INT unless you want to focus on rituals / knowledge skills. Futhermore, the longbow does more damage and has a much longer range than the cleric at-wills. The character can also pick up some ranger attacks via multiclassing for even more archery goodness.

You need an 18 or 20 to be competent.
Dwarven fighter & paladin, eladrin warlord, half-elf warlord, tiefling rogue & warlord. Those are all race & class combos that the PHB tells you are well-suited for one another, where the race does not give a +2 to the class' primary stat. And the assumed stat distribution tops off with a 16. So either your assumptions are faulty (and most of the are, IMO - where are these 12 round combats coming from?) or the game authors, playtesters, and the people who have been playing the game for the past 8 months have been deluding themselves.
 
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Removing at-will powers opens up design space for character types that are currently sub-par by the RAW. It doesn't matter if you are martial, arcane, divine, primal, elemental, shadow, ki or whatever other power sources they are going to come up with. Characters are limited by the at-wills that they are tied to at character creation.

This makes having characters that do not fit the mold of those prefab at-wills outside the ability for the RAW to deal with and a limitation of the game system.
ok I have tried to ask this 3 times now...

wont your system also limit characters to a prefab mold...

If i want to play the wizard with a wand but no weapon...how can I in your system???

What about a cleric, druid, any other class??? You want your concept with wepons to matter but why take away concepts without???

If my wizard can't xloud of daggers and scortching burst at will...then he can run out of magic....what fun is playing a magic caster that has run out of magic??


edit: My LFR character is a half elf swordmage...that started with a 16 Int...and considers Basic attacks to be his most used 'at will' power...I also have sword burst and lightning lure...but I have Int blademaster...
 

Well, I might be a little late to the party...
First of all, having at-will powers in the game removes the need to be decent at basic attacks. How do you become decent at a basic attack? You pump your dexterity and or strength at character creation. Strength allows for basic melee and heavy thrown weapon attacks and dexterity allows for basic ranged and light thrown weapon attacks.

The issue here is that 4e isn't particularly focused on ensuring that everyone is reasonable good at using a weapon. In fact, those that are typically utilize the Martial power source. The expectation seems to be that if you are Divine, Arcane, Primal, etc... using a weapon is often, though not always, secondary.

That may not be stylistically you're thing. However, it's not that dissimilar to earlier editions. The poor 1st edition magic user's hit table was pretty bad, and could hardly be called decent with a basic attack. I think it was only with 3e (or maybe 2e Player's Options series) which brought some of these characters up to the sub-par level.

You would have 2 additional encounter powers. Encounter powers are much more powerful and would quickly knock out a lot more creatures. A controller for instance would actually be pretty good under this system imo. They could hit multiple creatures with spells that actually do more than scratch them. So despite the wizards INT based limitation they are actually contributing more with three encounter powers than they would with a myriad of crap at-wills. This could revitalize the controller role.

Would the new encounter powers be upgraded in effect as well? If not, then a wizard with 1 encounter power and magic missile/scorching burst would outperform a wizard with 1 encounter power and only two uses of magic missile/scorching burst and the rest basic attacks. Significantly.

Another important factor is, in 4e a character’s vanilla attacks are their at-will attacks. Having a special attack at will is not very special. They are not very interesting after doing them ten times every combat. It is like a one trick pony that is given a bunch of tools that can only be used in two ways. It removes imagination because when you have a cool thing like reaping strike of eldritch blast why would you ever pull out a bow throw a dagger or do anything of the sort?

IMO, they are special because they are iconic of the role the character plays. At wills help the character consistently perform his/her role. Leader never lose the ability to aid their team members, controllers never lose the ability to manage minions or change the battlefield, if even on a minor level. Taking at-wills away reduce the significance on role in the game. Again, for some people that might be a good thing.

Also, I have a hard time really understanding your "repetitive" argument. In the end, you're proposing reducing two (or three) at-wills to one (the basic attack) and I don't see how that will get less repetitive. Instead of a two trick pony, it is a one trick pony. Certainly, increasing the number of encounter abilities can fix the tedium of combat, but that solution can be done without removing at-wills. That, and relying on basic attacks would increase the grind feel. At wills have a little something extra to make a combat interesting. Using tide of iron to push an enemy into a flanking position with rogue is a lot more fun, and makes for a shorter combat, then "I swing my sword."

Removing at-will powers opens up design space for character types that are currently sub-par by the RAW. It doesn't matter if you are martial, arcane, divine, primal, elemental, shadow, ki or whatever other power sources they are going to come up with. Characters are limited by the at-wills that they are tied to at character creation.

This makes having characters that do not fit the mold of those prefab at-wills outside the ability for the RAW to deal with and a limitation of the game system.

The perfect example is the elf cleric archer of correlon. This character is not a very viable build. I mean, what would a cleric be doing with a bow let alone a high dex. A ranged cleric is a lazer cleric pure and simple and that only requires uni-pumped wisdom to be effective. With making basic attacks the standard instead of lazers it says, "Ok I can make an archer cleric because I am not losing anything for doing it." Thus it opens up many more character concepts that were previously unavailable.

Your discussion has been focused on opening up options by encouraging/focus more dependence on weapons. The design space I see opened up is making up the cleric archer, or the cleric crossbowman, or the wizard quarterstaff wielder. True, certain at-wills (primarily those from power sources other than martial) don't really help the character swing a sword or shoot a bow. The reason, I believe, is that the expectations is if you want your character to do cool stuff with weapons, you'll look into the martial power source.

It's important to look at the role you want to have. Do you want your cleric archer to primarily assist the rest of the team? Cleric is the way to go, with maybe a multiclass into Ranger. It sounds as if you more want a hotshot archer who's also a devoted follower of Corellon. That's mostly striker, you can do that completely as a Ranger. However, if you want to add some healing and/or holy smiting, multiclass into Cleric. I think that's a completely viable build.

If, however, you simply want the characters to really focus on using weapons and don't like all that other flashy stuff, go with an all Martial campaign. Throw in some extra encounters if you think the combats are getting too dull. If you want, you can try removing at-wills in your campaign (no-one's stopping you). However, my opinion would be that it would:

1) Make combats longer unless the adversaries were scaled down. Even the current encounter powers aren't finishers, they are just slightly scaled up at-will powers (depending on level).

2) Make combat more dull as the players use their abilities early (to bring the opponents down) and then grind away with basic attacks.

3) Make non martial characters less optimized (having to spread abilities out) while allowing martial characters to optimize as they please. This would tend to make the non martial characters more fragile and probably less interesting to play.

According to your posts, I think you're trying to get away from 1) and especially 2). My opinion is removing at-wills would have the opposite effect of what you hope.

But give it a shot and see if you want.
 
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I think you grasped only part of the point. At-will powers that are better than using a basic attack make using a basic attack useless which in turn makes certain options blatantly sub-par. This is obvious. However, you seem to think the point was only at-wills that require a specific weapon cannot be used with a different type of weapon. A valid point but again only part of the point.

Excellent analysis btw.

Okay, I think I get what you're saying now.

Now I don't agree that its a problem, but I get it.
 

Why is this a bad thing? D&D has always featured strong fighters, smart wizards, agile rogues (except when they were called thieves), etc. 4e's rather elegant mechanics that tie a class's traditional primary stat directly to combat performance --by making it determine both to-hit and damage bonus-- is, well, rather elegant.

What are the benefits of messing with this?
It's not objectively bad, it's a matter of taste. I just happen to prefer characters with more balanced ability scores. :) I'm not for taking away all the benefits of a high traditional primary stat for a character, by the way - I like that aspect of 4e, too. I just wonder whether providing a scaling damage bonus would be enough of an advantage to having a high traditional primary stat, while giving the player the leeway to have a character that runs against type without feeling too disadvantatged mechanically.
 

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