Atlas Games finds free download doesn't work...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Cergorach said:
Shoplifting = Stealing
Embezzlement = Embezzlement
Counterfeiting = Counterfeiting
The last two don't fall under stealing when your prosecuted. I think that a lot of embezzlers and counterfeiters would love to call it stealing, it would get them lighter sentences...

Well, it's now obvious you aren't a resident of the Unites States of America. Here in the US, it is like this:
Shoplifting = stealing
Embezzlement = stealing
Counterfeiting = stealing
Theft = stealing
Grand theft = stealing
Burglary = stealing
Mugging = stealing
Robbery = stealing
Larceny = stealing
Grand larceny = stealing
Tax fraud = stealing
Copyright Infringement = stealing
Corporate espionage = stealing
Patent infringement = stealing
Grand theft auto = stealing

Shall I continue?

Enough with the idiotic semantics game. Stealing involves the principle of one person taking without permission something from someone else, resulting in some manner of loss to the party from which the thing was taken. Everything you are trying to play off as not being stealing is simply just a list of various means of accomplishing the act of stealing or categorizing what was stolen. All you're doing is trying to play a game of the pot calling the kettle black. Now give it a rest.

Incidentally, no where in the United States is there a criminal charge of stealing. It is always classified as something else, as the above list indicates.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Actually, it's free product. If you mean advertising in the sense of "more people know about it", yes, but as advertising is generally intended to increase sales, this is un-advertising, as it is removing potential customers from the market.
Advertisement is the art of making things known. Advertisement is generally used to inform people, this can be done to motivate to buy a certain product or service. Not every concept is about making money...

I don't know if I would go for this, either. If this could be stated absolutely, it would be true, but then if the material has no interest for you (the generic, hypothetical "you", of course, I'm not referring to the person I'm quoting specifically), then why download it?

If a person downloads the material, then that person can be said to have some interest in it. That level of interest, small as it may be, still represents the possibility of a sale.
You theorize with the assumption that the consumer has unlimited resources, or atleast enough to satisfy all it's needs. This is not true for 95% of the consumer population of the western world. I'm in the luxury position to currently spend 2/3 of my income on my hobby (€1000), but there sure is more stuff i would love to have.

The consumer has a limited buget, this budget goes first to the most desired consumables. When money runs out, the downloading starts. Atleast in the 'ideal' world. I've heard enough people gloating that they downloaded a very good pdf, to spare a f4ew bucks, so they could buy another six pack. That in my eyes is amoral, that booz is more important then a good book...

Mao Tse Tung wrote of guerillas that "they must move like fish through the sea of the people". Put less poetically, criminals need public support to transform themselves into 'daring renegades', as the pirates typically portray themselves. Public support results in lowered public vigilance.

Additionally, up to a smaller point, the more people engage in piracy the less likely an individual will be targeted, unless the level of piracy is sufficient to trigger a specific response, and as long as it is considered wrong to steal in this way. Also, the more pirates, the more sources for pirated materials.
You mean this bit?
It’s time to build Communist parties of a new type, with the application of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism within the concrete conditions in which the parties are operating—that is, with the development of a specific thought that will allow the class vanguard to swim like fish among the masses of every single country, to penetrate specific contradictions putting this at the service of people’s war.
The 'sharing' community still has to keep it's distance from the masses, because inevetabily the current share network will reach critical mass and a crackdown will follow. The 'share' community has the added grief of constantly upgrading their network before the current one reaches critical mass. That's not really a problem with something as big as sharing movies, apps, or music, but for rpg books it's a lot more difficult to establish a new network.

Yes, It's Atlas games fault that I couldn't find all the Rafael Sabatini books in print.
No, but it is Atlas Games's fault that not all of their products are in print or available as pdf. That's one of the reasons people are scanning AM3rd now...

I wasn't actually pointing at Atlas, but more at TSR, FASA, GDW, etc. The old giants of the industry. They finally saw the light, but by then the monkey was already out of the box.

I could even speculate that you like doing naughty things to puppies, but I won't ...
Hmm... Little puppies...Tasty puppies... ;-p

It would indeed be a slimy thing to accuse someone else of acting in opposition to their stated intentions without any evidence, so I'm glad that you went to *so much trouble* to tell us that you weren't doing that ...
Just showing the flipside of the coin John picked up, but only bothered to show us one possible side of the coin, i showed the possible flip side of the coin...

And how the hell am i supposed to proof what he was thinking when he thought up this scheme? Or is the use of scheme badsemantics? ;-p

Material that I agreed with, or found not notably objectionable, I left out. This has the risk of making my post seem more hostile than I intend. I hope I have avoided that.
I like to be complet, so i reply to everything ;-)

On another topic in this thread, I hope that piracy foes not restrict my ability to buy pdf products. While the area I live in gets gaming material in as a slow trickle, the primary reason that I like pdf's are for compactness. It is easier to fit something on a CD-Rom than on a bookshelf, and there is no risk of getting in my wife's way
I highly doubt it, because there where already high quality scans and OCRs floating around of physical books before there even was a D20 pdf market.

I really dig it that i can have my entire book collection on my laptop, instead of hiring a 10 tonner to move all my gaming material when i'm at my friends house. My physical RPG book collection is large, my pdf rpg book collection is just as large...
 

I wrote, "There does not have to be "lost revenue" in order for something to be stealing."

Cergorach wrote, "I didn't say that, nor did i imply that."

In response, let me again quote the earlier message, in which Cergorach's actual words were, "certain people want to say that downloading is stealing, thereby implying that every illegal download is lost revenue."

I realize that "certain people" are not you, of course. Regardless of how one reads your plain text (can you be said to be saying or implying something when you attribute it to other unnamed people? can you be speculating, when you put forth some speculation, and then say that you would never speculate like that?), let me point out that I did not actually say that you said or implied what you deny saying or implying. I am clearly responding to the implications drawn by those "certain people." So simmer down, there's here's no reason for you to take offense. :)
 

Cergorach said:
On the marrigae certivicate it reads, homosexual marriage, and not gay marriage.

Since you wish to nitpick, it does not say marriage at all, but "Civil Union".

(There are a couple of analogies in your response, that if followed, may trigger the wrath of Eric's grandma.)

The dangers of nitpicking, as I see them here, are:

1) Such nitpicking distracts from the central topic of the debate

2) Speaking of piracy as stealing as stealing is thought of in general usage is legitimate (at least as I see it); to narrow the definition of this to the legal wrong "waters down" the wrong, as "copyright infringement" - for example- does not have the full set of negative connotations that stealing does. I don't recall any "Thou shalt not infringe copyright and demean the value of the author's work". At its most extreme, it is like those word games where one begins with one word and changes one letter at a time until it is another word. In this case, we have seen cases even in just this thread where arguments have started with "It isn't *really* stealing" to "It's all *their* fault for not just giving me OOP books!"

When speaking strictly in the legal sense, then legal definitions should be used. I know that some words have different, more precise usages in different fields. As a scientist, it is quite frustrating for me to hear someone speak of a scientific theory as "just a guess", their understanding of what the general use definition of theory is, so I can see the importance of protecting boundaries, but it seems here as just a fight for arguing's sake.
 

Dana_Jorgensen said:
Downloading is in fact stealing. After it surpasses a certain point, it stops being the civil offense of copyright infringement and becomes the criminal offense of counterfeiting. And the cutoff point is small; 10 units or $100 retail value.
Of the same type, i don't see any reason for a downloader to have 10 of the same product on his harddrive. i'm not certain, but i thought that counterfeiting only applied to physical products. So you could counterfeit the Lion King DVD, but distributing the data would constitute copyright infringement.

But if you could be more specific and point me to the exact laws saying that large amounts of 'illegal' downloads constitutes counterfeiting.

Isn't counterfeiting a different charge then stealing? If not, please point me in the right direction.

from the BSA site:
Piracy and the Law

Many businesses, both large and small, face serious legal risks because of software piracy. Under the law, a company can be held liable for its employees’ actions. If an employee is installing unauthorized software copies on company computers or acquiring illegal software through the Internet, the company can be sued for copyright infringement. This is true even if the company’s management was unaware of the employee’s actions.

Quite simply, to make or download unauthorized copies of software is to break the law, no matter how many copies are involved. Whether you are casually making a few copies for friends, loaning disks, distributing and/or downloading pirated software via the Internet, or buying a single software program and then installing it on 100 of your company’s personal computers, you are committing a copyright infringement. It doesn’t matter if you are doing it to make money or not — if you or your company is caught copying software, you may be held liable under both civil and criminal law.

If the copyright owner brings a civil action against you, the owner can seek to stop you from using its software immediately and can also request monetary damages. The copyright owner may then choose between actual damages, which includes the amount it has lost because of your infringement as well as any profits attributable to the infringement, and statutory damages, which can be as much as $150,000 for each program copied. In addition, the government can criminally prosecute you for copyright infringement. If convicted, you can be fined up to $250,000, or sentenced to jail for up to five years, or both.

To learn more, download a free copy of BSA’s guide to Software Piracy and the Law.
Even BSA doesn't speak a word about counterfeiting, so please show me your wisdom. Please make sure that your wisdom applies to internet 'piracy'.

And the biggest user of this fact of law? Not microsoft, not the RIAA, but Disney. Back in the 1980's, with the locations of both Disney World and Disneyland being essentially coastal, it was natural that the boardwalk and beachside airbrush studios were doing shirts with Disney characters. As soon as Disney could document that an airbrush shop had produced enough similar shirts to breach the counterfeiting laws, the company filed criminal complaints against the shop. The shop owners were arrested, not served with court papers. And the MPAA uses the laws constantly to this day.
I find Disney one of the evil corps that made copyright laws so increadibly indecent.

Well, it's now obvious you aren't a resident of the Unites States of America. Here in the US, it is like this:
Shoplifting = stealing
Embezzlement = stealing
Counterfeiting = stealing
Theft = stealing
Grand theft = stealing
Burglary = stealing
Mugging = stealing
Robbery = stealing
Larceny = stealing
Grand larceny = stealing
Tax fraud = stealing
Copyright Infringement = stealing
Corporate espionage = stealing
Patent infringement = stealing
Grand theft auto = stealing

Shall I continue?
Please lookup shoplifting at dictionary.com, see, the word stealing is used, under Embezzlement and Counterfeiting the word 'steal' isn't used.

And no, i'm not a native ;-p

Oh my gawd even the bloody US government uses steal in relation to copyright!
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:2:./temp/~c108N9L6Fv::
It's a bleak day for us all ;-)
 

@John:
I said what you said, wich he *points in a general direction* implied through the clever manipulation of words... Which resulted in... What was the original question again? *simmers down* ;-)

@Dr. Harry:
Hell, i haven't seen one of those things, i made a guess, a scientific guess ;-)

Scientific theories are guesses, guesses that where made nerdie fellows with scruffy looking hair, big glasses, white coats and far to much time on their hands. Relativity, smiverty... *grins*

Nitpicking does distract from the main focus of the discussion, but so do words like stealing and pirate appologizers, especially when they drip with the venom their author imbued them with...

*stretches* So any more mental excercises?
 
Last edited:

Cergorach said:
Advertisement is the art of making things known. Advertisement is generally used to inform people, this can be done to motivate to buy a certain product or service. Not every concept is about making money...

Both of our statements are out, so I will not follow this into another semantic ring. The great majority of business concepts do have making money in there somewhere, or at the very least not losing money

You theorize with the assumption that the consumer has unlimited resources, or atleast enough to satisfy all it's needs.

Quite the opposite, really, I theorize that the are limited resources that can be applied to a given topic, especially to leisure topics. If resources were limitless, then it might have a value to say the free downloads could increase sales as downloaders would buy anything that they liked.

As they do not have unlimited resources, I judge that pirated downloads would ensure that legitimate product was *not* purchased.

I enjoy gaming, but I don't classify it as a "need". :)


The consumer has a limited buget, this budget goes first to the most desired consumables.

Exactly, and when a work is pirated will the downloader/thief rush out to buy the work in a form that will reimburse the producers, or will that person think, "Cool, now I can buy something else"?

When money runs out, the downloading starts. Atleast in the 'ideal' world. I've heard enough people gloating that they downloaded a very good pdf, to spare a f4ew bucks, so they could buy another six pack. That in my eyes is amoral, that booz is more important then a good book...

The first sentence seems to imply that there is an imperative that someone who cannot afford (i.e., their "I will spend" money stops before they reach this item) an item will then "have" to get it by any means possible. There are some truly good items I've had to let go by me, and a number that are on my "someday" list right now. That does not mean that I feel compelled or justified in "acquiring" that material by piracy.


You mean this bit?

Not exactly; apparently when Mao found a phrase he liked, he stuck with it. Unfortunately, as I am doing some second generation referencing (the quote I saw was in an article about Confederate terrorists in Missouri during the U.S. Civil War), I do not have an exact citation for the source. I used it as the quote, not the source, illustrated what I thought was a good analogy.


No, but it is Atlas Games's fault that not all of their products are in print or available as pdf. That's one of the reasons people are scanning AM3rd now...

I wasn't actually pointing at Atlas, but more at TSR, FASA, GDW, etc. The old giants of the industry. They finally saw the light, but by then the monkey was already out of the box.

There is a lot of material that I like that is OOP (most especially ICE's MERP sourcebooks), but I don't see it as an imperative or a justification to spread scans of those works.

I really dig it that i can have my entire book collection on my laptop, instead of hiring a 10 tonner to move all my gaming material when i'm at my friends house. My physical RPG book collection is large, my pdf rpg book collection is just as large...

I would like (and my wife would LOVE) for me to have even more material in pdf form. The TSR Classic downloads enabled me to give away those supplements and just carry around a disk. Not to mention the joys of public domain ebooks such as at www.blackmask.com.

Harry
 

*drops the advertising argument*

Not everyone has your morale fiber, hell, most people don't have your morale fiber. When i look around me, from the highest paid CEOs to the lowest sales person (i work at a bank btw), i see very few who would object to downloading a couple of MP3s. Some find it a good way to save money, others can't afford it, others see it as a way to fight the system.

I'm someone who would love to see the economy change, instead of having to buying something, one would donate money. It's a radical change, but it's already being done in the open source software community. Free software is developed, if you like it enough, you give the creator some money. This also works for a lot of community sites (people donating money to keep the system alive). I would love to see something like this happen within the rpg community, it's a radical change, maybe even crazy, but a boy can dream, can't he...

The biggest problem is that most people have a Suk mentality (Dune reference), the money earned is more important than the patient...

Most rpg publishers don't suffer from this, well actually they do suffer from it, they suffer from the people who would rather keep their money in their pocket, than give money to the publisher they've downloaded great products from.

Some could say "I'm a pirate because of idealogical reasons.". *ducks for cover*
 

Cergorach said:
Of the same type, i don't see any reason for a downloader to have 10 of the same product on his harddrive. i'm not certain, but i thought that counterfeiting only applied to physical products. So you could counterfeit the Lion King DVD, but distributing the data would constitute copyright infringement.

But if you could be more specific and point me to the exact laws saying that large amounts of 'illegal' downloads constitutes counterfeiting.

Isn't counterfeiting a different charge then stealing? If not, please point me in the right direction.

from the BSA site:

Even BSA doesn't speak a word about counterfeiting, so please show me your wisdom. Please make sure that your wisdom applies to internet 'piracy'.


I find Disney one of the evil corps that made copyright laws so increadibly indecent.


Please lookup shoplifting at dictionary.com, see, the word stealing is used, under Embezzlement and Counterfeiting the word 'steal' isn't used.

And no, i'm not a native ;-p

Oh my gawd even the bloody US government uses steal in relation to copyright!
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:2:./temp/~c108N9L6Fv::
It's a bleak day for us all ;-)

The BSA is concerned with client seat licensing, not counterfeiting, since it is a private organization with no legal authority.

Counterfeiting falls on the shoulders of the person supplying the download, not the person downloading. Those downloading would be facing charges of possession of stolen property, or more likely, given the fact they probably have dozens of illegal downloads, trafficking in stolen goods. Note that these crimes all revolve around the existence of something that was stolen, even if the statutes do not use the word "steal" or variants thereof to describe the crime.

Now stop playing your pitiful little game, face the fact that legalese is a variant of english not covered by doctionary.com, and stop arguing your invalid and incorrect points with everyone.
 

Dana_Jorgensen said:
The BSA is concerned with client seat licensing, not counterfeiting, since it is a private organization with no legal authority.

Counterfeiting falls on the shoulders of the person supplying the download, not the person downloading. Those downloading would be facing charges of possession of stolen property, or more likely, given the fact they probably have dozens of illegal downloads, trafficking in stolen goods. Note that these crimes all revolve around the existence of something that was stolen, even if the statutes do not use the word "steal" or variants thereof to describe the crime.
I find it strange that the governtment and the BSA have such powerful tools at their disposal and haven't used them yet in any p2p case. Just for speculation's sake why is that? I'm still waiting on that link that supports your theory, you might want to start looking here: http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/

Now stop playing your pitiful little game, face the fact that legalese is a variant of english not covered by doctionary.com, and stop arguing your invalid and incorrect points with everyone.
1. This is a game site.
2. What's doctionary.com? Some kind of medical site? ;-p
3. If you don't understand the principles of a discussion, please look it up here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=discussion i'm always happy to help.
4. Your supposed to be a roleplayer, use your imagination and try to understand boh sides of the coin...
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top