Attack of Opportunity--but not really
- Thread starter Vrecknidj
- Start date
ThirdWizard
First Post
Feinting definately doesn't make you flat footed. If it did, it would say so. As is, it only denies the target his Dex to your next attack. They can still gain AoO, and they still retain their Dex bonus to other combatants.
Somehow making them make a Balance check, however, would do this.
I have to wonder, though, what is the point in drawing an AoO exactly? I can think of two circumstances. 1) You're trying to distract the enemy from another person. For example, the fighter draws an AoO from an ogre so that others may close without suffering an AoO. 2) You draw an AoO so that an interruptable action can't be foiled. The wizard draws an AoO so that he doesn't have to make a Concentration check later during his turn, and his spell can't be interrupted.
Both of those situations can be handled simply by Moving through threatened squares under RAW. I wouldn't however, be adverse to allowing a character to just draw the AoO as a Move Action without actually moving. It wouldn't be RAW, but it wouldn't be extremely abusable.
Somehow making them make a Balance check, however, would do this.
SRD said:
I have to wonder, though, what is the point in drawing an AoO exactly? I can think of two circumstances. 1) You're trying to distract the enemy from another person. For example, the fighter draws an AoO from an ogre so that others may close without suffering an AoO. 2) You draw an AoO so that an interruptable action can't be foiled. The wizard draws an AoO so that he doesn't have to make a Concentration check later during his turn, and his spell can't be interrupted.
Both of those situations can be handled simply by Moving through threatened squares under RAW. I wouldn't however, be adverse to allowing a character to just draw the AoO as a Move Action without actually moving. It wouldn't be RAW, but it wouldn't be extremely abusable.
Bayonet_Chris
First Post
Tomato / Tomato (Doesn't sound right if you write it)
The only difference between losing your dex bonus and being flat-footed is the ability to make attacks of opportunity. That's horrible. It should be one state - it's easier to deal with on many levels. My house rule is always that if you lose dex bonus, you get no attacks of opportunity.
That's just my preference for simplifying things.
ThirdWizard said:
The only difference between losing your dex bonus and being flat-footed is the ability to make attacks of opportunity. That's horrible. It should be one state - it's easier to deal with on many levels. My house rule is always that if you lose dex bonus, you get no attacks of opportunity.
That's just my preference for simplifying things.
tomBitonti
Hero
Fient to use up AOO
I am hearing this question in the post:
* Can one use feint to cause an opponent to waste an AOO (without
their gaining the benefit of taking an AOO)?
That isn't covered by the improved feint feat, but doesn't seem to be
too much of a stretch.
As a side note, an AOO should not be considered to a discrete attack, despite
being handled through games mechanics by a discrete attack roll. The opponent
threatening the archer is assumed to be constantly trying to harm the
archer, and the AOO represents extra potential for the constant threat to
result in actual harm.
As an attack action, an archer won't be able to shoot in a round after
making the feint, since the archer only one attack action or full attack
action. However, with improved feint a move action is used, meaning
that the archer could make a single attack, but still not a full round attack.
The use to the archer is limited, but not to others nearby the opponent.
Trickier, what if the opponent chooses to not take the AOO? After all,
the AOO is at their option. If the DM has the opponent make a sense
motive, with a failure leading to a statement that "you failed your sense
motive; the archer is taking a shot; do you want to take an AOO?", then
it seems likely that the AOO will not be taken. Alternative, the DM secretly
makes the sense motive check, and, if that fails, announces "The archer is
taking a shot. Do you want to take an AOO?" If the AOO is taken then,
"Whoops. He tricked you. Your AOO is wasted."
I am hearing this question in the post:
* Can one use feint to cause an opponent to waste an AOO (without
their gaining the benefit of taking an AOO)?
That isn't covered by the improved feint feat, but doesn't seem to be
too much of a stretch.
As a side note, an AOO should not be considered to a discrete attack, despite
being handled through games mechanics by a discrete attack roll. The opponent
threatening the archer is assumed to be constantly trying to harm the
archer, and the AOO represents extra potential for the constant threat to
result in actual harm.
As an attack action, an archer won't be able to shoot in a round after
making the feint, since the archer only one attack action or full attack
action. However, with improved feint a move action is used, meaning
that the archer could make a single attack, but still not a full round attack.
The use to the archer is limited, but not to others nearby the opponent.
Trickier, what if the opponent chooses to not take the AOO? After all,
the AOO is at their option. If the DM has the opponent make a sense
motive, with a failure leading to a statement that "you failed your sense
motive; the archer is taking a shot; do you want to take an AOO?", then
it seems likely that the AOO will not be taken. Alternative, the DM secretly
makes the sense motive check, and, if that fails, announces "The archer is
taking a shot. Do you want to take an AOO?" If the AOO is taken then,
"Whoops. He tricked you. Your AOO is wasted."
ThirdWizard
First Post
Bayonet_Chris said:
Main problem: A feint only opens you up to one sneak attack from one opponent. Being flat footed opens you up to several sneak attacks from several opponents. Even barring sneak attack, it lowers your AC to several attackers in addition to removing your ability to make AoOs.
That makes feinting far more powerful than it was intended.
Ah ha. I knew there was more to this.
"I am hearing this question in the post:
* Can one use feint to cause an opponent to waste an AOO (without
their gaining the benefit of taking an AOO)?"
That's what I was getting at. And I appreciate your considerations of the consequences.
Dave
"I am hearing this question in the post:
* Can one use feint to cause an opponent to waste an AOO (without
their gaining the benefit of taking an AOO)?"
That's what I was getting at. And I appreciate your considerations of the consequences.
Dave
Bayonet_Chris
First Post
ThirdWizard said:
No. In either situation, you're flat footed against the person who initiated the feint. The crux of the issue is not can one person or multiple people take advantage - it's one person. The issue is, does the target get attacks of opportunity? The difference between how it is written (lose dex bonus) and being flatfooted (lose dex bonus and no AoO) is what I was questioning.
genshou
First Post
There is a feat similar to this concept in Oriental Adventures. Going from memory, it allows you trick your foe into making an attack of opportunity and then using the fact that they are drawn-out to make an advantageous attack against them. I can't remember the mechanic, but it either causes them to lose Dex bonus to AC or it gives a bonus on the attack roll. Either way, you are still subject to their AoO but still get to make your own attack even if you are dropped by their attack (the two are happening simultaneously). Given the basis behind the tactic you want, Vrecknidj, sadly I don't think it's going to work. But if you can find a way to make a mechanic that makes sense, go for it.
