Attacking a held light source

[mlund]

My general sentiment is that if the item in question doesn't change the monster or character's stats, abilities, and powers (IE - it is a MacGuffin to be fought over) then using a Stunt to contest control of it seems quite appropriate.

Taking away a held light source, weapon, holy symbol, arcane implement, shield, sword, or other tool is much more questionable territory for the reasons expounded upon above. A monster with a particular custom ability to do any of these things should be flavored and balanced appropriately. It would typically become an Encounter or Recharge power, or an at-will power with low damage expressions - etc. It shouldn't just be an "extra" handed to a humanoid NPC or the like.

If you want to shift the terrain of an encounter by denying light to the PCs, look into monsters with Powers that create Areas of darkness. The Goblin Hexer monster might be a good starting point with his Stinking Cloud effect. See if you can splice the Dark Ones entry with the Goblin Hexer entry to create a Dark Hexer.

- Marty Lund

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

I'm a big fan of keepin' it simple.

Just have the foe make whatever attack he normally does and if it hits, instead of doing damage it snatches the lightsource or snuffs it out. Viola!

 

[Ryujin]

The only way that I would permit this sort of thing to happen at all, would be as a melee action during a surprise round. Then the surprising party MIGHT have enough of a drop on their opponents that they could knock a weapon or light source out of the hands of their opponents, but even then I wouldn't make it easy.

Then again, what party walks around with a single light source, or what figher-type only has one weapon? As an Eladrin Warlock even, I have a crossbow, 3 daggers, and a longsword. Oh, and a sling and some stones that I picked up. Our party fighter looks like a hardware store on two legs. Generally there is a light source both at the front and the rear of the party.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

The only way that I would permit this sort of thing to happen at all, would be as a melee action during a surprise round. Then the surprising party MIGHT have enough of a drop on their opponents that they could knock a weapon or light source out of the hands of their opponents, but even then I wouldn't make it easy.

If a player can push someone back, do a generous amount of damage and cause a foe to bleed during combat with an At Will power, why the check can't he knock a lantern or torch out of someone's hand? Are you seriously suggesting it would be some sort of difficult feat, as compared to how and what the powers do for players?

 

[Ryujin]

If a player can push someone back, do a generous amount of damage and cause a foe to bleed during combat with an At Will power, why the check can't he knock a lantern or torch out of someone's hand? Are you seriously suggesting it would be some sort of difficult feat, as compared to how and what the powers do for players?

Why yes, I suppose that I am.

Allowing someone to easily eliminate a light source or disarm an opponent (which is, as has been pointed out, essentially what the character would be doing) would allow for too much abuse. If you want to have people do it, create a power or mechanic for it that doesn't break the game.

I don't think that it should be difficult because, in real life it would be difficult. It wouldn't be. I think that it should be difficult for reasons of playability. An aware opponent will protect his light source. Push him back, knock him prone, do anything short of of cut off the hand holding it and he'll maintain a death-grip on it, because light, for a normally sighted character, is life itself in combat.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Why yes, I suppose that I am.

Allowing someone to easily eliminate a light source or disarm an opponent (which is, as has been pointed out, essentially what the character would be doing) would allow for too much abuse. If you want to have people do it, create a power or mechanic for it that doesn't break the game.

I don't think that it should be difficult because, in real life it would be difficult. It wouldn't be. I think that it should be difficult for reasons of playability. An aware opponent will protect his light source. Push him back, knock him prone, do anything short of of cut off the hand holding it and he'll maintain a death-grip on it, because light, for a normally sighted character, is life itself in combat.

Disarming is inherently abusive. You and I are in agreement on that.

Eliminating a light source in a game where there are nearly four player races that use lowlight vision or one class that can cast Light on a whim is perfectly acceptable. There are very minor penalties for concealment purposes, but in total darkness the invisibility rules still allow players and foes to operate fairly well since 4E caters towards "take an action every round", regardless of condition beyond unconcious.

Hell, I'd argue that any power that knocks someone prone means they immediately drop whatever's in their hand. Powers that generate intense cold would extinguish lightsources in accord.

 

[Ryujin]

Disarming is inherently abusive. You and I are in agreement on that.

Eliminating a light source in a game where there are nearly four player races that use lowlight vision or one class that can cast Light on a whim is perfectly acceptable. There are very minor penalties for concealment purposes, but in total darkness the invisibility rules still allow players and foes to operate fairly well since 4E caters towards "take an action every round", regardless of condition beyond unconcious.

Hell, I'd argue that any power that knocks someone prone means they immediately drop whatever's in their hand. Powers that generate intense cold would extinguish lightsources in accord.

Unfortunately the mechanic for one presumes the mechanic for the other. You could certainly assume that someone who was knocked prone also loosed whatever they were holding. I thought that I remembered reading that somewhere, but couldn't find it. I tend to state that my primary combat items are on lanyards anyway, as I don't want to go losing them in a fall.

One of the few good uses I had found for the of Gust of Wind spell was to take out light sources. Assuming that certain powers extinguish light would be to give them abilities beyond what is written in their descriptions though, potentially making them far more powerful than originally intended.

 

[frankthedm]

I say out their damn lights!

STR Vs Reflex: Hit = light source has it's radius & duration halved

 

[MarkB]

That all being said it seems to me the direction I would favor would be some set of more thorough guidelines on stunting. Something along the lines of a set of situations that come up often and how they have been successfully dealt with. This is basically 'houserules', but it saves GMs a good bit of time and energy and lets them benefit from the experience of others if there are a reasonably comprehensive list of them. What was attempted, what sort of ruling was invoked, and how well it worked or what problems it lead to.

Obviously not everyone will ever agree about the best mechanism or even the best overall approach, but it would be interesting if someone were to go about the task of compiling an 'ICA houserules compendium'. People could download it and at least have a starting point/guide for what might work well when they hit one of these things in their game. It also helps in adventure design since you can anticipate the most likely sorts of approaches parties will take and provide yourself with a 'when the party tries X, do this' notation (I seem to do this a lot when designing adventures).

One possibility that occurs to me is using Action Points to power stunts. The player describes the action he wants to take, and if the DM considers it reasonable, he assigns the player an appropriate check or attack to make, and chooses an appropriate defense for him to make it against. To activate the stunt, the player spends an Action Point without gaining an extra action, then makes the check or attack as a standard action.

Aside from the nature of the results, the normal rules for spending Action Points apply.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

the DMG stunt idea seems fine ot me, though, I'd make it that when you do such a thing, you are definately going to give combat advantage!
well, what do you expect it would do, lol? obviously it leaves you vulnerable.
that will also make it not so explotable (as the risk is not to be taken lightly)