attacking with two weapons/ holding two weapons

[d12]

Okay, lets say you have a dual-wielding ranger named Bob with all the nice dual-wielding feats. He has a longsword in his primary hand and a dagger is his off hand. Its the surprise round of combat and Bob gets to attack once. He attacks with his longsword. Does Bob use his regular attack bonus with his longsword or does he use the reduced attack bonus for wielding with two hands?

In other words - if your character is even holding a weapon in their off-hand, are they considered to be dual-wielding?

 

[Crothian]

The only time Bob takes the penalties for fighting with two weapoons is when he's actually fighting with two weapons.

 

[Oni]

In other words - if your character is even holding a weapon in their off-hand, are they considered to be dual-wielding?

Not any more so than say when they're holding a torch or a shield (and are not trying to use said item as a weapon at the same time).

 

[kreynolds]

What Crothian and Oni said.

Expanding upon that, you suffer the two-weapon fighting penalties for the rest of the round, all the way up until it is your turn again. For example, you have initiative and go first in the round. You then take a full-attack action so awesome it would make Drizzt proud. From that point on, you suffer the two-weapon fighting penalties. If you make any attacks of opportunity against a bumbling fool of an orc that moves through your threatened area, you still suffer the penalties, even though you only took one swing.

At the start of your next turn, the penalties go away, unless you decide to attack with both weapons again, of course.

 

[Pax]

I will point out one exception to the general rule put forth by Crothian and others (with which I agree 100%, other than this one point): it IS possible to get the penalty for two-weapon fighting, WITHOUT attacking with the off-weapon and WITHOUT taking a full attack option.

In the FRCS book, there is a regional feat called "Twin Sword Style" -- as a GM, I would rule, on any round you choose to benefit from that feat's AC bonus, with or without a full attack ... you suffer the penalties for using two weapons.

Essentially, a similar effect to (and stacks with) fighting defensively, or a slight use of Expertise, which is dependant on having a pair of weaposn that fit a specific classification.

 

[kreynolds]

I will point out one exception to the general rule

...

In the FRCS book, there is a regional feat called "Twin Sword Style"

This isn't an exception according to the rules though.

as a GM, I would rule, on any round you choose to benefit from that feat's AC bonus, with or without a full attack ... you suffer the penalties for using two weapons.

What kind of penalty do you impose for declaring your Dodge bonus? Keep in mind, you don't have to use both of your weapons to gain the AC benefit of Two-Weapon Style. That feat merely represents your fighting style, but it in no way represents that you are actively using both of your weapons. It's really just representative of your ability to respond to an attack with both or either of weapons should you choose to.

It would be just like using a +5 defending dagger in your off-hand, with the entire enhancement bonus transfered to your AC. You don't have to attack with that dagger at all. Remember, part of your AC is based upon you parrying attacks in the background. If you have a defending weapon, you're no doubt parrying with it. The same goes for wielding two weapons.

EDIT: I can understand the logic behind your house rule, and it makes sense, until you take into consideration the abstract nature of the combat system and AC, which includes parrying, dodging, weaving, etc.

 

[drnuncheon]

What kind of penalty do you impose for declaring your Dodge bonus? Keep in mind, you don't have to use both of your weapons to gain the AC benefit of Two-Weapon Style. That feat merely represents your fighting style, but it in no way represents that you are actively using both of your weapons. It's really just representative of your ability to respond to an attack with both or either of weapons should you choose to.

Parrying with both weapons is not "actively using both weapons"? That's a very strange definition.

The feat says "when fighting with two swords", not "when fighting with one sword and holding a sword in the other hand".

It would be just like using a +5 defending dagger in your off-hand, with the entire enhancement bonus transfered to your AC. You don't have to attack with that dagger at all.

The defending property is weritten differently - it does not say or imply that you need to take any action to get the benefit, while Two-Sword Style specifically says "while fighting with two weapons". Thus, to get the benefit of the Two-Sword Style feat, I think you need to be actively using the off-hand weapon. The benefit of TSS over Expertise is that you also have the potential for one or more extra attacks.

J

 

[kreynolds]

Parrying with both weapons is not "actively using both weapons"? That's a very strange definition.

It isn't strange at all. Unless you use the variant rule for parrying from the DMG, you never actively parry in the first place, thus you never actively use both weapons when it's not your turn, unless you've already used them in a full-attack action and your next turn hasn't come up yet.

The act of parrying is passive. If you have a shield and a sword, it is assumed you are using both to keep your defenses up, though this only really takes place in the background.

The feat says "when fighting with two swords", not "when fighting with one sword and holding a sword in the other hand".

You make a very good point, but I don't think it can interpretted in just one way. I can understand someone interpreting it to mean "When you take the full attack action with two swords", but I interpret it to mean, "when you are armed with (or wielding, if you prefer) two weapons". Admittedly, we're now at the part of the discussion where I can only give you my interpretation of the rule, not a quote, since there isn't anything that solidly points one way or the other.

The defending property is weritten differently - it does not say or imply that you need to take any action to get the benefit

Neither does Twin Sword Style.

Two-Sword Style specifically says "while fighting with two weapons". Thus, to get the benefit of the Two-Sword Style feat, I think you need to be actively using the off-hand weapon.

So long as you acknowledge that this is just your interpretation, as I did, that's understandable. The feat does not explicitly call for any type of action to be taken in order to use it, no more so Dodge, which is also misleading if you scrutinize the description as much as Twin Sword Style.

Dodge states "During your action, you designate an opponent". Now, I could quite easily argue that Dodge requires you to take a standard action (or partial, or ME, or full) in order to use it, since it references action. Obviously, it is referring to your "turn", and not any specific action. Conversely, TSS style does not refer to any specific action either.

Logically, if you rule that TSS can only be used during a specific type of action, you must follow through with that ruling and apply the same restriction to Dodge. If not, your argument collapses and lack justification for your decision, barring rule-0 of course.

But, like I said, this is now just my opinion and my interpretation.

The benefit of TSS over Expertise is that you also have the potential for one or more extra attacks.

And the drawback to TSS is that you must be from a particular region or culture in order to easily select it. Regional feats can be difficult to aquire, much more so than your average feat.

 

[drnuncheon]

Dodge states "During your action, you designate an opponent". Now, I could quite easily argue that Dodge requires you to take a standard action (or partial, or ME, or full) in order to use it, since it references action. Obviously, it is referring to your "turn", and not any specific action. Conversely, TSS style does not refer to any specific action either.

No, because it says during your action, and not as your action or as a standard action or as a partial action or as a full-round action. The 'during your action' is saying that you cannot select a person during someone else's action.

Logically, if you rule that TSS can only be used during a specific type of action, you must follow through with that ruling and apply the same restriction to Dodge.

Not at all. Dodge does not say "while fighting with two weapons". It has a single restriction - that it be your action when you designate your opponent. Twin sword style has that restriction as well - but we're not discussing that restriction. We're discussing the "while fighting with two weapons" restriction, which is not present for the Dodge feat - so whatever ruling a DM makes for TSS regarding that restriction should logically have no bearing on Dodge whatsoever.

J

 

[Pax]

What kind of penalty do you impose for declaring your Dodge bonus? Keep in mind, you don't have to use both of your weapons to gain the AC benefit of Two-Weapon Style. That feat merely represents your fighting style, but it in no way represents that you are actively using both of your weapons. It's really just representative of your ability to respond to an attack with both or either of weapons should you choose to.

Dodge does not require you to "fight with two weapons." Twin Sword style says you must "be fighting with two weapons" -- not just casually holding one or both in your hands. You must fight with them both.

It would be just like using a +5 defending dagger in your off-hand, with the entire enhancement bonus transfered to your AC. You don't have to attack with that dagger at all. Remember, part of your AC is based upon you parrying attacks in the background. If you have a defending weapon, you're no doubt parrying with it. The same goes for wielding two weapons.

That is entirely different; that would be a magical property ... the Defender +5 weapon could as easily be Armor Spikes, rather than a dagger. To gain the Defender bonus, you aren't required to FIGHT with the weapon, merely "wield" it.

EDIT: I can understand the logic behind your house rule, and it makes sense, until you take into consideration the abstract nature of the combat system and AC, which includes parrying, dodging, weaving, etc.

And with Twin Sword style, the reason for the house rule is, it requires you not to have two weapons in hand ... but to actively fight with two weapons. There's a difference in there that I consider critical.

Mind you -- I'm currently PLAYING a Twin Sword style fighter, so even as a player I don't find it an unfair penalty.