Attorney vs Lawyer

[Greatwyrm]

As I've said, I'm sure there are economic issues that may prevent WotC from pursuing d20M as vigorously as some of us would like. However, it still feels like some of the stuff they have put out is a little half-hearted.

I was glad to see d20M move the classes to something akin to the Alternity core class system. I'm happy with most of the things they've done with the d20 ruleset to get it to a modern game. I can even understand keeping the slot-based systems for FX abilities. My problem is that the rest of the offerings have just not been innovative.

How much of the "threats" section in the core book is just a reprint of the monster manual with an MP5 instead of a short sword in the equipment list? Why is a setting that is basically D&D with guns and cars the first big roll-out for the system?

It just doesn't seem like they're willing to risk being great. I hate to keep holding up Dark Matter as some kind of Holy Grail, but it's a good example here. Before Dark Matter, there were conspiracy based games and some modern based games. But, since it's release, I have yet to meet anybody who has actually read the book that doesn't think it's one of the best game books ever released. It was a departure from safe standards and it was great. TSR could have easily done a D&D modern setting with Alternity, but they didn't. They took the chance and it came out beautifully.

There are plenty of creative people working at WotC (not as many as in previous years, but...). Turn them loose and let them surprise you. Heck, do another setting search. Even if you only get a fraction of the response, you could put out one really good setting per year for quite a while.

I just think it's hard to say d20M doesn't sell well, so we won't make much for it. If they don't give us anything to get excited about, why shell out the bucks.

</rant >

 

[EvilBeeker]

I think the mistake is that both "attorney" and "lawyer" should appear in Chapter 1, under "Fiend".

Finally! Someone with a decent lawyer joke on this thread. Thought there would be a few more by now.

 

[buzz]

My problem is that the rest of the offerings have just not been innovative.

Well, we also need to take into consideration that there have only been two WotC products released for d20M so far. UA was indeed a clunker (though, imho, due to implementation, not premise), but the MM looks pretty good so far. FWIW, the Poly mini-games have been pretty darn good.

However, I also find WotC's not jumping on d20M: Dark*Matter pretty unfathomable. I think the fact that the MM has tons of recylced material from that and Star*Drive to be evidence that the designers are slowly coming to their senses. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed for d20 Future.

 

[Greatwyrm]

FWIW, the Poly mini-games have been pretty darn good.

You bet they have. The problem for me is that these are good ideas for settings or supplements, but they're stuck in Polyhedron. I like Poly, I'm probably going to become a subscriber to Dungeon just to get it. The thing is, if a 40-or-so page treatment in Poly was good for Genetech, what would a 250 page hardback look like?

There have been several good ideas in Poly for d20M. Genetech, Pulp Heroes, and Iron Lords of Jupiter (not my thing, but well thought out) could all have easily been stand-alone supplements. They wouldn't necessarily even need to be the size of Urban Arcana or the FRCS, maybe just 96 pages, like the Horizon series from Fantasy Flight. Since the core rules are fairly standard, the core setting material could be condensed a bit.

On the other hand, stuff like the Scooby-Doo and Cannonball Runn knock-offs are better suited for the magazine. Something you probably wouldn't run as a campaign, but maybe 3 or 4 games as something different.

As an aside, wasn't there some news or rumor of a full campaign setting based on the Mecha issue?

 

[buzz]

The thing is, if a 40-or-so page treatment in Poly was good for Genetech, what would a 250 page hardback look like?

Well, there's always a chance it could look like a overly-padded, idea-sparse money-sink, like UA. Honestly, the whole UA concept could have been covered adequately in 40 pages.

But, I know what you mean. Pulp Heroes would be an excellent cadidate for a full-blown hardcover. Possibly ILOJ as well.

As an aside, wasn't there some news or rumor of a full campaign setting based on the Mecha issue?

I dunno. Don't GoO and DP9 already have d20 Mecha supplements planned or in release? And then there's that Armageddon thingy by Mongoose.

 

[JPL]

But, I know what you mean. Pulp Heroes would be an excellent cadidate for a full-blown hardcover.

Buzz, don't get me started about a Pulp Heroes hardback for d20. I'm torn as to whether they should make it the Indiana Jones RPG, though...they would need to find a balance between Indy content and non-Indy, general pulp content, and lots of fun stuff from the pulps wouldn't really fit into Indy's world.

The Poly games work well as sketches...whether any given game would work as an Urbana Arcana-sized book is an open question. Genetech, for example, has plenty of growth potential, and could stake out its territory as a "ribofunk" game. Spelljammer and Gamma/Omega World are obviously ripe for expansion, while no one is arguing that Hijinx! needs 320 pages.

As for why we haven't seen d20 Dark Matter...I wonder if it's a little dated? I've posted on this before...I wonder if, post-9/11, an X-Filesish conspiracy game has the same resonance. Perhaps to the corporate eye it would just seem a little behind the times.

 

[Katowice]

The reason there's a great deal of D&D-esque material in the core book has been stated before. The strategy, as I understand it, was to draw in RPGers who are already familiar with D&D. Now that that has been accomplished, the creators are tapping into the Alternity/Dark*Matter market, which I would guess is a smaller fanbase than core D&D players. If they keep up this trend, I can see more products that attempt to satisfy a variety of audiences (looking forward to d20 Future). d20 Modern itself is not a campaign setting, but a cookbook for all kinds of genres. That said, I would love to see a d20 Modern Dark*Matter campaign setting book.

 

[buzz]

Buzz, don't get me started about a Pulp Heroes hardback for d20. I'm torn as to whether they should make it the Indiana Jones RPG, though...

Honestly, I have no interest in a licensed Indy RPG. The old one by TSR was kind of fun, but there's just so much more to pulp, like, say, '80s neo-pulp! That, and you don' have to spend half the session arguing over who gets to be Indy.

As for why we haven't seen d20 Dark Matter...I wonder if it's a little dated? I've posted on this before...I wonder if, post-9/11, an X-Filesish conspiracy game has the same resonance. Perhaps to the corporate eye it would just seem a little behind the times.

I think the quality in D*M is timeless, myself. Admittedly, the X-Files trend has pretty much passed us by. Fantasy and urban fantasy are certainly more trendy right now... but that certainly didn't make UA a better product.

I dunno. I have a "build it and they will come" attitude. If it's a quality game, it'll start it's own trend.

 

[JPL]

Honestly, I have no interest in a licensed Indy RPG. The old one by TSR was kind of fun, but there's just so much more to pulp, like, say, '80s neo-pulp! That, and you don' have to spend half the session arguing over who gets to be Indy.


I think the quality in D*M is timeless, myself. Admittedly, the X-Files trend has pretty much passed us by. Fantasy and urban fantasy are certainly more trendy right now... but that certainly didn't make UA a better product.

I dunno. I have a "build it and they will come" attitude. If it's a quality game, it'll start it's own trend.

Well, I'm envisioning this as similar to Star Wars...the assumption is that you'll create your own heroes and have their own adventures.

I think that the only way a big, high-quality WotC pulp hardback would happen would be to link it to a popular property like Indy. But I'd like to see this hypothetical hardcover cover the broad range of pulp --- lost worlds, weird science, etc. --- rather just just Indy-style relic hunting. So WotC could keep Indy as the baseline, but have a large section in the back discussing other varieties of pulp/cliffhanger adventures.

I know you're displeased with UA, but a lot of people seem to like it.

While I agree that a good game will find an audience, I question whether that audience will be big enough to keep the game alive at WotC. Dark*Matter is a close call, but I can understand why marketing would want to test the waters with "modern D&D" first, because it's much more of a sure thing.

 

[buzz]

I think that the only way a big, high-quality WotC pulp hardback would happen would be to link it to a popular property like Indy.

I dunno. I mean, when did the last Indy film come out? 1989? I'm not sure if that's "hot" enough to assume that the license would boost sales. It certainly didn't help the Masterbook version of Indy much.

And WW's Adventure! seemed to do well enough with no tie-in license that WW is supposedly reviving it post- Time of Judgement. It was a quality RPG, won an Origins award, and is a critical favorite.