B5 Earth Alliance Factbook - How many people can you offend?

[ddougan]

You know, this argument has already been done to death and at this point its just getting annoying. Mongoose apologized for the remarks and said that what was written is just the opinion of one person. To continue berating them for something that has already been sufficiently addressed really accomplishes nothing.
.

Whisperfoot, I don't mean to be rude, but if it is now becoming annoying to yourself, you have the option to not read the thread (it is clearly labelled).

But I don't see how the issue has been sufficiently addressed.

I've visted the Mongoose site, and seen no mention of an official apology on their main page, nor the B5 product line page (and in particular, the EA Factbook product page). I did find an individual with a "Mongoose" organisation label saying sorry on one of the forum discussions - but it didn't appear to me as an official company aplogy.

Nor does there appear to be any attempt to undo the damage - the book is still out there full of racist material.

And whilst the material in the book may be the opinion of one person, it has apparently been passed by Warner Bros and Mongoose quality control.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

And whilst the material in the book may be the opinion of one person, it has apparently been passed by Warner Bros and Mongoose quality control.

Maybe that means WB didn't think the same way you did?

I read some canadians whom thought it was hokey and wrong
(from a geographical standpoint), it was German and French posters
that seemed the most pissed.

Who knows, I live in the gaming sticks and can't FIND the book.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

Laughable and ignorant

Perceiving myself as a very openminded European with thorough experiences of the different cultures that exist on my continent (being myself Danish), I can only label the descriptions "ignorant to the point where they are just laughable." The author shows absolutely no knowledge about the countries, he describes, deeper than what one can attain through viewing old low-budget movies (who tended to present many cultures in ways bordering between disrespectful and outright racist). To me this makes the chapter completely worthless. The lest you can expect is a minimum of cultural insight, courtesy and respect.

Labelling the British as inherently victims and the Irish as inherently terrorists, also shows a shocking lack of knowledge about a crisis between two countries where many gruesome acts have been committed on both sides and the placement of guilt and responsibility is so shrouded in the fogs of history and debate that such oversimplistic statements serve only to discredit the knowledge and wisdom of the author further. And this seems to be just one example.

Sure, many of the positive and negative stereotypes that exist can surely serve as great roleplaying tools and we Europeans are certainly not above poking friendly fun at each others inherent differences (people would be surprised to know how different Danes, Norwegians and Swedes perceive themselves to be from their scandinavian brethren). There's no reason to be hysterical about a fair bit of stereotyping, but the degree of ignorance and knowledge demonstrated by the author in the excerpts above (which is my only basis as I do not have the book) is so blatant that it should surely disqualify him from writing anything about the real world before he decides to take the time to inform himself properly. So my advice to the author - start reading and start learning about what our real world cultures are really like, preferably firsthand, I'm sure you'll feel more enlightened afterwards. If this was written like this on purpose, I will withdraw my statements on ignorance and lack of knowledge and instead recommend that greater thought be put into future material.

-Zarrock​

 

[MrFilthyIke]

If this was written like this on purpose, I will withdraw my statements on ignorance and lack of knowledge and instead recommend that greater thought be put into future material.

That's my thing, I refuse to make an opinion until I can read the book, as
I hate to judge or condemn without seeing for myself. So, I need a to peruse
a copy before buying.

 

[Faraer]

Categories of Earth people is a wholly different case from fantasy races, which are specifically intended to symbolize different origins, tendencies, and philosophies of being. Having a fantasy race be evil is a powerful literary tool; having a human ethnic group be evil is invidious racism. The irony is that this kind of national stereotyping (which isn't a trivial matter as it leads to suffering and war) can be interpreted as the category error of dealing with real people as if they were (bad) fictional characters.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

That's my thing, I refuse to make an opinion until I can read the book, as
I hate to judge or condemn without seeing for myself. So, I need a to peruse
a copy before buying.

Which is indeed, a good disposition that we could all learn from. The mentioned quotes as they stand alone, however, I could not let stand unreplied as I found them simply to inherently flawed to be redeemed if they are indeed - as stated earlier - presented as "neutral" and informative text. Presented as the viewpoint of aliens, they would perhaps have triggered a higher degree of amusement especially as we know how easily different cultures misunderstand each other on Earth - so how difficult would it not be for aliens? I'm sure Mr. Mollari has many interesting things to say about Terrans if given the chance.

From a B5 viewpoint I should think that a very basic political, economical, and technological guide to the developments in the countries in question would be of most interest. This would leave us - the DMs and players - to fill in the cultural blanks from our own perspectives (which seems to be more comprehensive than the others anyway).

I haven't played many games on Earth (mainly CoC and Cyberpunk). But always quite enjoyed toying with our preconceived notions of the nationalities of PCs and NPCs to fit the new context inside the game. I sincerely doubt that "flavourful text" of the kind presented in the first post does really add anything of value to a B5 game and should probably have been omitted or rewritten completely for the respective chapter in the book.

A constructive dialogue about how this could be improved should be welcomed as I can hardly imagine that the author - or Mongoose Publishing - intended the material to be provocative (a strategy, however, that some company's embrace with pride).

I wonder what they wrote about Danes, though?

-Zarrock

 

[Neo]

I wonder what they wrote about Danes, though?

-Zarrock

Ovewrwhelming love of Carlsberg and Bacon obviously...

Rant follows.....

Though on a more serious note I gotta say this topic has amazed me.. I read the book in question and playtested it and I'm a worldy guy, been from one corner of the globe to the other and I never felt slurred by the contents, nor did it ever occur to me that any would see the contents as a slur... why you ask? simply put because I knew none was intended, real or imagined.

It is soooo easy to look at something concentrate on the negative (or your own individual interpretation of what is the negative) and blow it all out of proportion in your mind into something it ins't.

In this instance Mongoose and the author were surprised as hell I think that anyone would see it as a means to demean or insult anyone... I mean its a GAME for a start, so what is said between the pages of a book on a make believe Sci Fi universe anyway as a stimulus for a few outraged citizens of the REAL earth is kinda crazy..and funny...and sad all at once. Sad that people are so happy to need to complain about something thatwas for the mosy part a very well written, and put together book that lends greatly to the setting it is part of.

It equally amuses me that this tendency to "Need" to complain about the smallest thing "Real" or "imagined" constitue a great many threads on a great many boards, and quite often outwieghs the much rarer "praise" related threads regarding products. Human nature I guess..a need to see the nagative instead of the positive, perhaps iots just the way we are wired, who knows.

Anyway i've seen this subject trolled across the Mongoose boards to a largely un-Argument supporting audience, and it was apologised for by Mongoose (though why they have to defend themselves for something in a make believe book for a make believe universe that has no bearing or real life or real points of view Ill never know), it was apologised for by the author... and the topic died a death... yet here it is again, being trolled anew here on the ENboards... <shakes head> I guess some folks just arent content to let a subject lie and must continually thrash at it like a dog with a towsing toy...

Anyway this whole subject just amuses, shocks and appals me for different reasons and without wanting to spark this nonsense to continued life.. ill end my little rant with a little advice, which had already been suggested by another in an earlier post.

We are all caretakers of our own sensibilities and if this book or any of its content offends, upsets or saddens anyone, then I suggest they make use of thier fundamental right to choose, and choose not to expose themself to further upset and close the book..and move on... put a nail in this topics coffin, lay it to rest, say a final prayer, wish it a fond farewell or pat it on the bakc and wish it well...but dear god let this be an end to this subject once and for all.

 

[swrushing]

I never felt slurred by the contents, nor did it ever occur to me that any would see the contents as a slur... why you ask? simply put because I knew none was intended, real or imagined.

emphasis mine

Of course, others who do not have any basis to form this "known" opinion of intent don't have this preconception to draw on. Thus, they might reach different conclusions.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

Which is indeed, a good disposition that we could all learn from. The mentioned quotes as they stand alone, however, I could not let stand unreplied as I found them simply to inherently flawed to be redeemed if they are indeed - as stated earlier - presented as "neutral" and informative text. -Zarrock

Agreed completely. It (the concept of national stereotyping) is a debate I'd join in a hearbeat, but I feel so..."off" because I can't see/quote said source of displeasure.

And thanks for being civil in the chatting Zarrock, I saw some of the nasty comment made on the Mongoose forums.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

Agreed completely. It (the concept of national stereotyping) is a debate I'd join in a hearbeat, but I feel so..."off" because I can't see/quote said source of displeasure.

And thanks for being civil in the chatting Zarrock, I saw some of the nasty comment made on the Mongoose forums.

No problem. I am myself quite committed to the Irish/English conflict and have been so for many years. Therefore I am naturally a bit sensitive to writings that simplify the conflict - no matter where they may appear. I have not seen the earlier "flame wars" that Neo describes above, but if his word is an accurate description of what went to pass (and my earlier experiences with Neo leads me to believe that it is), this topic should probably be laid to rest and I feel I have already spoken my part in this. I would have liked to see the writing in full, though, but as I have only little interest in the B5 RPG (I loved the series), I probably won't .

I do, however, believe that RPG books have as great a responsibility as any other work that describes elements of the real world (future or not) to stay true to the spirit of the source material used (here: the nationalities and cultures of Earth). As I mentioned earlier, I do not infer any ill will on the part of Mongoose Publishing and their apology should have been sufficient for the offended.

Personally things like this don't offend me as much as they annoy me. Everytime a decision is made to portray our cultures in crude and stereotypical manners, an opportunity is made to show the true verisimilitude and depth of our various cultural heritages. I could not think of a greater missed opportunity for interesting roleplaying than that deprived from us by such means. This mistake is by no means limited to Mongoose Publ. and the author, we are probably all guilty of this most of the time. After all the human minds is apt to fill in lack of knowledge with assumptions and stereotyping will always be the result. The weapon is understanding and openmindedness - but that's a discussion for other, more important, forums than those that deal with a hobby which purpose has always been to bring people together (something rpg products should preferably reflect of course).

I wish Mongoose all the best - especially their B5 line because Straczynski's work deserves all the exposure it can get - and hope that this experience may encourage them to apply even more research and not fall back on simple, less informed material for their future products. The mistake is natural, though, fantasy authors usually have more space to maneuver in as their descriptions rarely offend any particular group (but beware: some fanatics even infer that Tolkien's work is both racist and glorifying of Western culture, so no one is truly safe).

I guess I have said more than enough by now and will let this topic rest in the hope that no "permanent" damage has been done and that we are all the wiser (hope springs eternal ).


-Zarrock