ddougan said:
I'm sorry, but I really find the above excuse laughable. What exactly did the author think would be taken up by so many of the statements in the book? Why did they even need to be there - it would have been so easy to describe the various nations in the EA without resorting to such an aggressive style of writing.
this kind of petty attack at me now is laughable, you say so many statements were made about this book when in truth there weren't and there have never been a lot of people supporting your viewpoint, you I am afraid to say a verbal minority presuming the silent majority also supports your view point. I'm afraid opinions and sales from what I hear simply do not bare your theory out.
You took from this book something a great many more poeple didn't, you conufsed a few traditional stereotypes in a game, as slurs aimed at real people in the real world... that to me is confusing the boundaries of what is a game and what is not to the extreme.
I would also point out I'm not making excuses for Mongoose, I don't need to, It isn't my place. I am HOWEVER a little bit more informed than you regarding the origins of this book. You have presumed a great much about the intent behind the words, yet you do so without any concrete knowledge to support your views at all. Instead you simply chose to see it as Racism, like I said previously that is sadly an all to familiar thing to see, people seeking offense where there is none, seeking to incite matters where no incitement was intended or required. You took something from the book, decided you did not like it, then sought the need to try and enforce your opinions on others by trying to paint this book out in a negative way and presume to tell everyone what the authors intent was behind its content.
If you are one of the playtesters, you failed in your job to highlight this. How can many other people be offended by material you think contains no slurs?
Okay firstly our playtest job was not a failure in any way, our job was to highligh rule issues, balance issues and playability not critique the writing itself, we leave the editing to the editors. So I would recommend you discover what and playtesting works before making such an off the cuff remark in future thank you.
Secondly you presume on the number of people offended by this material again.. you are not a "many" in any way shape or form I assure you.
Branding an entire nation (the Irish) as terrorists is racism. Branding an entire nation (the Germans) as warmongers throughout their entire history is racism. I read dozens of other racially offensive and negative stereotypes belonging to other nations.
Theya ren't branded as all being Terrorists, however Terrorism is a large part of Irish history, and has flooded english and irish media for decades.. so quite obviously when people think of the irish you tend to have it spring to mind and it is those things that spring to mind that were put out as national feats. You took from this that the author was saying all irish were terrorists, when quite obviously to anyone who bothered to consider the matter would have (and did for the most part) quite clearly see that the mention of terrorism is something that may spring to mind. When you ask people what they think of when they think of the Irish you tend to get Protestant - Catholic conflict, terrorism, Good Music, Leprechauns, Jolly people... those may be stereotypes but a stereotype is only what it is because MANY people associates those Stereotypical things with the thing in question so much. Is it racism of course not.
With regards to Germans nowehere in the book is it stated that the germans singularaly or entirely are warmongers, what it does say is that they are militaristic, which is clearly stated as being disciplined, well organised and capable in military matters... Is this a racial slur? no, merely as testimony to aspects that have been associated with Germany in general in the past. Why? well when most people think of Germany like it or not common responses are The World Wars, Sausages, Strange Sense of Humour and the East-West divide of old, stereotypes for sure..racial slurs? fraid not.
racism:
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
The EA Factbook's "Life in the EA" chapter is simply littered with racist remarks, and pro-actively suggests people play out many of them.
We've already asserted that you didn't find any of the statements in the book a slur on anyone, but (taking it slightly further) consider the following:
Providing traditional stereotype traits and associations as a means to create national feats and provide some bonus or other was intended to ADD to the game, give a little bit more depth to a character based on origins. Now I don't know about your group, but when my group made thier B5 characters and made use of the nationality feats thier main concern was what the benefit was, they didn't come away feeling slurred because all british were implied to be classist skilled in Savoir Faire etc.. You just read too much into what I have already pointed out is your "Presumed" intent behind what was written.
If PersonA claims that black people are stupid because of the shape of their head (a ludicrous stereotype which I'm sure you'll know once passed for so-called fact and influenced social attitudes), PersonA cannot claim they are not being racist because someone else (ie a black person) "blows it all out of proportion". PersonA could not then defend themself by saying that so called "scientific evidence" means the offend person is concentrating on the negative aspect of his claim.
If you think I've taken the analogy too far, tell me exactly what level of racism do you accept (other than the transparent level which you did not detect from playtesting the book)?
You see the problem I have with what your saying is that your seeking to take out of a make believe game some unintended offence, label it racism and bring it into the real world in order to argue out.. as if there was some hidden aggenda or racist propoganda being played out by a bunch of haters locked in a dark room plotting evil hidden amongst the words of this book...
Racism is something that is said or done with an intent to cause harm or offense, it is bias against a race based on thier race... and as far as this book is concerned thier was no aggenda, no ill intent, no hidden manifesto, no bias... just traditional stereotypes presented lightheartedly and given bonuses and penalties to apply to characters.
As I say above I'm english, did I feel slurred or racially attacked by the Mention of the classist England in this book? No... no more so than im offended by the fact that the english are protrayed in almost every foreign film as being well to do and posh spoken, again am I offended by this stereotyping not at all its quite an amusing and not even worth the raising of an eyebrow, certainly not an angst ridden complaint and demand for an apology.
Now if someone was throwing the stereotype in my face in a way meant to cause upset spitefully, or aggresively, seeking to cause harm..then i'd be upset... but as far as this book is concerned it is YOU who have applied "intent" to the words, it is you who has protrayed then as being an aggressive attack meant to cause harm or upset and that is the poiont I have tried to make. That intent was NEVER EVER there. It was the label YOU gave it a negative you protrayed it..but not one it ever was.
(I don't mean for the "tell me exactly..." question to sound like a personal attack - I'm instead trying to tie up your original comments above that you knew there was no intent, by referring to some legal precedent on what constitutes racial abuse - whereby Employee A in an organisation made racial comments to Employee B, but nothing was said or done because the two employees understood each other and accepted that behaviour knowing intent was not present, but when Employee C made the same remarks, he was considered to have committed racial harassment, because the target of those remarks did not believe the same intent (or lack of) was present in Employee C's comments.)
Again I ask what does real life issues have to do with a make believe game... you are still assuming intent and aggenda where there was none. What you have done is no different than someone presuming Peter Pan is ageist and taking offence... im sorry but its nonsense. You get from the book exactly what tone you give it yourself, and you chose to see it negatively.
[quote}Where do you draw the line between racist remarks and acceptable racist remarks because "hey, its only a game"?[/qote]
again the label of Racism is one you labeled, but just because you saw it as that does not mean that is because that IS what it is. Ill say this till im blue in the face, the intent you have presumed being negative and racist was provided by yourself, not the author. Anyone can see anything negatively if they wish to, but just because they take that from something does not make thier opinon correct or justified. There was never any racism intended in this book, and unless you choose to see it as being there then it wasn't... you chose to see it that way, most people didnt.
Again, I think you are making excuses (and not very good ones) to cover something you claim doesnt exist.
Not my place to make excuses, merely point out what I know to be the case. Based on being a little bit mroe informed on the origins of this book than yourself.
Let me ask you a question, when you read this book and assumed there was some racist aggenda/slurs in the book, did you bother to e-mail Mongoose or the Author and try to find out the actual intent and origins of the relevant sections, before you started posting negative posts on the product or did you just assume it was intentionally put there to offend and post straight away?
You judged and damned this part of the book without even having the courtesy or good manners to bother to investigate the matter further in order to at least get the relevant facts to support your argument. Odd then that someone who professes to be against such things would then discriminate against the company and author in question without ever giving them the opportunity to defend the content by asking them first before flaming them. You demand an apology and confession that racism was present from the company without even taking a moment to consider your view is not the correct one. Bit of a Witch Hunt dont you think?
If positive feedback is less quantitive than negative feedback, its no excuse for not speaking out against offensive material.
You missed the point.
everyone has the right to free speech and grateful we all are for it, but if you are going to attack something publicly, saying something which could feasibly harm someone reputation or livelihood, then you should at least have the decency to be in possession of all the facts first.
Had you spoken to the company and/or author first and they had given you cause to say the book had racist content then fair enough I'd have been quite happy to stay out of this forum and let your angst run riot... but you didn't and you haven't. You have presumed much and have nothing other than your own assumptions to back up your viewpoint. And that I am afraid is not enough in my humble opinion to damn the author, the book or the company.
Firstly, I'm not a troll. It would be nice if you apologised for calling me it. I raised some very valid points hoping to generate some discussion and understanding of how this could happen (a major product line by a major publisher releasing racially offensive material which offends so many different cultures and nationalities), and followed up on pretty much every response directed to me. And I did so in a polite way. This was my first post ever on the subject (I never posted to Mongoose boards about it). The Mongoose boards have been censored in these regards (and unfortunately some of the posters let their anger rule their judgement and posted some offensive messages concerning the book - something that will hardly generate sympathy for their views).
See there you go again you read what I wrote, assumed it was directed personally at you and decided to take offense. You took a perfectly ordinary statement and applied your own meaning to it in order to make it support your view. Can you not see that by applying intent to something that that does not make the intent you have given it real?
Secondly, the excuse "its only a game" doesn't wash. Racism is racism. The fact its being promoted in a social medium like gaming is as offensive as if it was being dictated from a TV broadcast, or presented on bill posters.
Okay, so I dont agree with your view, therefore I must be wrong? you have never for a moement considered that your view is not correct, you have acted as judge, jury and executioner for the intent of this book and you dont even have a single fact or piece of evidence to substantiate and endorse your views to back it all up with.
Thirdly, If the matter is still alive, it is because Mongoose has not satifactorily closed it. The so-called apology (or at least the only one I could find) was from a single Mongoose employee within a forum thread, and did not appear to be a company statement (hassanisabbah from Mongoose actually stated "I expect a much higher level of quality and sensibility from Mongoose" - which doesn't sound like a company statement to me).
Further evidence of just how uniformed you are I am afraid, Mongoose very much did apologise for any "assumed" upsetting content and they did so on thier forums as pertient and relevant. Had you bothered to investigate further you may have learned this.
Anyway I have no doubt you will reply in a further negative fashion, but I have said my piece and I know what i "know". I recommend you do a little bit more investigating and show a little more courtesy next time you decide to blow the "Call to Arms" over someone elses product next time.
I have no more to say on this subject other than that peope should take a moment in future and think before flaming, take the time to investigate the matter first before presuming the worst and taking that view to the public forums.
Heres wishing for a little bit more understanding, patience and consideration in the New Year.
Peace and Love
