Baatorian Law vs Paladin

[Nahat Anoj]

I'd say for an LG paladin laws are a means to the end of goodness. I'd have no problem with a paladin flouting the "authority" of devils in their home plane.

 

[pawsplay]

A paladin's code of honor forbids them from associating with evil characters. Serving a devil in any more than a perfunctory fashion not only puts their paladin status at risk, but for such a character would be a non-Lawful act.

 

[delericho]

One of the PCs, a female paladin, by bad luck and poor choices ended up as a prosinor and slave to a horned devil in the lawful evil plane of Baator. And the question of how far does a paladins lawfulness goes came up. A paladin normally must abide by the law of the land, but what if that land is the Nine Hells.

"Lawful" does not mean "always obeys the local laws". Sure, a Lawful character would tend to follow the local laws, unless she has a good reason for doing otherwise. Obviously, that applies in this case.

Does she follow the laws of Baator in order to simply survive long enough to escape, or does she follow the laws out of her lawful nature (forgoing any evil acts of course).

Normally, when confronted by evil laws, the (LG) Paladin should try to arrange a regime change, and thus replace the laws with a different set of non-evil laws. The difference between the (LG) Paladin's methods and the (CG) Rogue's methods is that the Paladin would, by preference, seek out a lawful means of effecting change - in a democracy, for example, they would make use of elections to replace the corrupt government with an alternative, where the Rogue might forment revolution on the streets.

Of course, in the case of the Nine Hells, that sort of regime change is a practical impossibility. To that end, the Paladin's likely response would be to try to escape as soon as possible, and thereafter potentially engage in a crusade to wipe it out once and for all.

Further more, does following the law of the Nine Hells make her non-good, or on the flip side does breaking the laws there make her unlawful?

Following the laws of the Nine Hells would most likely lead the Paladin into Evil. Breaking those laws need not lead her into un-Lawfulness, provided she does so in a consistent manner, in keeping with her adherence to the wider tenets of Law.

 

[delericho]

...A paladin normally must abide by the law of the land...

Also, while I remember, a Paladin is bound to obey "legitimate authority". It's quite a stretch to describe Devils as legitimate authority over the Paladin, even in their home plane.

 

[Aus_Snow]

One of the PCs, a female paladin, by bad luck and poor choices ended up as a prosinor and slave to a horned devil in the lawful evil plane of Baator.

Not good. :/

And the question of how far does a paladins lawfulness goes came up. A paladin normally must abide by the law of the land, but what if that land is the Nine Hells.

A Paladin must, in fact, follow his or her own code of conduct, without any exceptions whatsoever. And that's that. Obeying orders, or abiding by laws, according to devil kind. . . no. Not at all.

Does she follow the laws of Baator in order to simply survive long enough to escape, or does she follow the laws out of her lawful nature (forgoing any evil acts of course). Further more, does following the law of the Nine Hells make her non-good, or on the flip side does breaking the laws there make her unlawful?

As above.

 

[Runestar]

Just curious, how did the paladin end up being a slave to a devil anyways? That might be key here.

If it was against her will (say she was abducted and sold), then I suppose there is some wriggle room for rebellion.

But if she willingly sold herself into slavery (maybe to uphold her end to some bargain), then she still has to account to her own honour. Though I suppose you can argue that there is no harm done in refusing to follow an order you know to be morally wrong.

But if the fiend does not have her do anything against her own morals (maybe he just enjoys keeping her as a slave for the kicks of it?), then she really does not have much to complain about, does she?

What do the laws of Baator entail?

 

[Hand of Evil]

Who is her god and what is his/her domain? That is where her Paladin's Code comes from. Without knowing the code, can't provide a response.

Example of a code, use the boy scout code:

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.​

Boy Scout Law

A Scout is:

• Trustworthy
• Loyal
• Helpful
• Friendly
• Courteous
• Kind
• Obedient
• Cheerful
• Thrifty
• Brave
• Clean
• Reverent​

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Yet another consideration is: a paladin of which god?


A paladin of Sune might have different views on laws than a paladin of Tyr. Tyr is the more traditional Paladinlike god, but Sune has paladins as well. As god of beauty, laws that destroy beauty might be reasonable to ignore for her paladins...not so for Tyr.

Of course, the paladin must always try to work within the law rather than flaunting it entirely...whatver and wherever the law is. This doesn't mean they can't be ignored when egregious, but if there is a choice between "going through the right channels" and "going rogue" the paladin would always choose the former (unless the channels are clearly impossible or require evil acts).


Tyr's considerations are justice and law. Would this god support laws that were not just? I don't think so.

The tricky part is that NOT EVERY LAW IN BAATOR WILL BE EVIL. Can the PC shoplift? No. Is she required by her alignment to submit her tithe of pure souls to the archdevil? NO.

 

[Ambrus]

random laws

Heh. Oxymoron.

That said: there's nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, about the Nine Hells that would earn the respect or admiration of a Paladin.

How about: "At least it aint the Abyss"?

I'm likewise curious to know which Baatorian Law the paladin broke—and make no mistake, she certainly broke one or more laws—to warrant being imprisoned in Hell.

It'd also be interesting to explore the flip-side of this question; what are the Baatorian laws that govern the imprisonment of a paladin or other lawful good servant of a righteous god? It must be a bureaucratic nightmare for the poor devils. Is the paladin allowed "one phone call" with which she might contact her home plane to make them aware of her lawful incarceration? Must the paladin be properly tried for her crimes or can she lawfully petition for a hearing to review her case before her sentencing is carried out? If so, is she allowed legal representation or counsel? Is she assigned an infernal councilor or can she choose her own representative; possibly a member of her religious order or a Celestial envoy from her deity? Does the Nine Hells have a binding extradition treaty with the Seven Heavens which the paladin might seek to exploit? Perhaps both realms have a long standing prisoner exchange program she may be subjected to, whether she wants it or not. It'd be funny for the paladin, during her moment of utter despair, to be told by her jailer that she's about to be plane shifted to the upper planes just as a notorious devil or evil NPC appears nearby; his release from Mount Celestia being the price paid for her own freedom. I think it'd be great fun for the PCs and DM to explore the legal avenues of Hell rather than plot some predictably run-of-the-mill escape attempt scenario.

 

[pawsplay]

Following the laws of the Nine Hells would most likely lead the Paladin into Evil. Breaking those laws need not lead her into un-Lawfulness, provided she does so in a consistent manner, in keeping with her adherence to the wider tenets of Law.

Quite so. A Paladin's code is their highest law, period. There is a difference between a law and an ordinance. A Chaotic society could have tons of laws, they would just not be very consistent in form and purpose.