Gunslinger
First Post
hong said:
The +1 luck bonuses to AC seems a bit overpowered whern compared to dodge.
BADC: Bothered About Disposable Charisma, Where Can I Find More Info?
- Thread starter demon_jr
- Start date
The +1 luck bonuses to AC seems a bit overpowered whern compared to dodge.
Deedlit said:
Sounds like fun, and a lot of other people point out that the DM has to make charisma important or it won't be.
HOWEVER- (If you've seen me anywhere else on the net you knew that was coming)
A. If you start turning people away from the gates because they are too dang ugly, then the players feel like you are picking on them. In the minds of the players it would be no different than if they all had low dexterities and you threw nothing but balance checks, tumble checks, and reflex saves at them.
B. If only one player has the "I dumped charisma to have a high constitution" problem, then turning him away at the gates of every city is gonna cause irritation for the other players (at best) or make the syndrome sufferer sit out of a big part of the game session (at worst)
C. Then you run into the problem that I get from the single (or sometimes more than one) player who feels that charisma is useless. He says ok fine, I won't dump charisma. How much charisma do I have to have before you'll let me play? (Talk about guilt-trip)
D. Unlike every other statistic, charisma has little to no bearing on actual gameplay for a lot of the classes. A quick review:
Str- Carrying capacity, melee attack, damage. Obvious pluses for any character, though undoubtedly more important for a warrior-type.
Dex- Better ranged attacks, a whole assortment of important skills, AC, and reflex saves. Again, obviously great for a rogue, still good for anyone else.
Con- Better HP, better fort saves.
Int- More skill points, lots of dependant skills.
Wis- Better will saves, several important skills such as spot, listen.
Now charisma. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing. *snicker* No seriously. If you are a sorcerer, it is obviously necessary. If you are a cleric, and you turn undead it is important. Bards have the perform skill and their spellcasting. If you are anyone else.... well... you have bonuses to a few skills, but most of the time in my group, my players are decent enough roleplayers where I don't need to make a bluff or diplomacy check. If they roleplay well, then they succeed. If they roleplay badly, I can't justify rolling a die and saying that the guardsman believed they are sick with something like: "Umm.. Randor sneezed. I think he may have hepatitus. Come let us out please."
In the rare instances where a player cannot or does not feel like actually doing the roleplaying I think that wisdom (as in your understanding of human nature and practical knowledge of people in general) would serve just as well as a bonus providing ability score.
Now that I am reading this, I may have just realized my problem with players that dump charisma. I can't feel justified about penalizing them for dumping it because I personally think its useless except as a guide on how to roleplay your character. With something along the lines of Constitution, they cant argue that I am picking on them because I make them subtract 1 from their hit die rolls due to their 8 in Con. Its hard-coded into the rules and easy to understand. There is no room for arguement. Almost all of charisma's benefits are floating out there in the nebulous ground between roleplaying and rollplaying. So what started out as a rant about how charisma is dumped became a rant about why charisma sucks, and now its a cry for help. Someone please tell me a good way to make charisma more useful in the games I run without picking on the players, please! Or if you can't do that, please help me to at least justify keeping it on the character sheets. (Which if you have read about RPGnu *formerly Primus* then you know I already have tossed it in my current system)
Wolfspirit
First Post
One thing that really annoys me about charisma is that it's second to actual roleplaying. You have to be able to pull off a decent lie to need to make a bluff check for example. I don't think many DMs are keen on letting players say "I say something charismatic, can I just roll a charisma check?"
I know this problem exists in both D&D and White Wolf systems, there's some WW guides that reccomend just dropping the charisma skills if you're a good enough talker.
It is a problem in my play group, to date I'm one of the only players that's had a charisma above ten; I've had a 10 in charisma once with a dwarven cleric that was disliked by most.
The way I deal with charisma when I DM is that it's sort of an "lucky" stat. When the orc chief is looking to make one last strike before he goes down, he'll take out the 10 charisma character. When a Priestess has a choice of giving a magic sword to one of two players, the more "noble" looking one will get, all things being equal.
Of course, I'm going to have to see if my DM will let me take a couple of the charisma feats. The "reroll a die" one looks soooo usefull.
I know this problem exists in both D&D and White Wolf systems, there's some WW guides that reccomend just dropping the charisma skills if you're a good enough talker.
It is a problem in my play group, to date I'm one of the only players that's had a charisma above ten; I've had a 10 in charisma once with a dwarven cleric that was disliked by most.
The way I deal with charisma when I DM is that it's sort of an "lucky" stat. When the orc chief is looking to make one last strike before he goes down, he'll take out the 10 charisma character. When a Priestess has a choice of giving a magic sword to one of two players, the more "noble" looking one will get, all things being equal.
Of course, I'm going to have to see if my DM will let me take a couple of the charisma feats. The "reroll a die" one looks soooo usefull.
Capellan
Explorer
AEG had a long article in one of their L5R rulebooks about the whole roleplaying vs charisma issue. As I recall, their argument boiled down to:
- if you let roleplaying automatically determine all encounters, then any social skill in the game is invalidated
- if you let roleplaying automatically determine all encounters, then the less confident and outgoing players are penalised .. which tends to make them less confident and outgoing.
- there are times when roleplaying a scene is simply wasting everyone's time, especially if only one player is involved. A lot of things (such as haggling over trade deals, etc) should be brushed over quickly with a die roll, and you should move on.
It's a good article. If you know someone with the books, go take a look at it.
For myself, my approach to charisma-based skills is this:
- I set a base DC (or, if it is an opposed check, determine the other NPC's total score)
- if the player just says "I try to bluff him that his target has left town" (or whatever it may be) then they have to beat the base score
- if the player chooses to roleplay the actual scene (and I choose to let them - I'm not spending 20 minutes playing out a scene of them buying provisions) then I'll assign a modifier to the DC (or the NPC's total) based on how good they were. This can be up to 5 (plus or minus - sometimes people make a mess of their roleplaying attempts)
This lets Charisma retain its value as an attribute, since I only take RPing into account in certain cases, and then only to influence the difficulty of the skill check. But it also allows people the option to get into character and RP if they want to, and are comfortable doing so.
It works for us, particularly as we have a wide variety of experience levels in our group (from those who have played for 15 years to those who have played less than half a dozen times)
- if you let roleplaying automatically determine all encounters, then any social skill in the game is invalidated
- if you let roleplaying automatically determine all encounters, then the less confident and outgoing players are penalised .. which tends to make them less confident and outgoing.
- there are times when roleplaying a scene is simply wasting everyone's time, especially if only one player is involved. A lot of things (such as haggling over trade deals, etc) should be brushed over quickly with a die roll, and you should move on.
It's a good article. If you know someone with the books, go take a look at it.
For myself, my approach to charisma-based skills is this:
- I set a base DC (or, if it is an opposed check, determine the other NPC's total score)
- if the player just says "I try to bluff him that his target has left town" (or whatever it may be) then they have to beat the base score
- if the player chooses to roleplay the actual scene (and I choose to let them - I'm not spending 20 minutes playing out a scene of them buying provisions) then I'll assign a modifier to the DC (or the NPC's total) based on how good they were. This can be up to 5 (plus or minus - sometimes people make a mess of their roleplaying attempts)
This lets Charisma retain its value as an attribute, since I only take RPing into account in certain cases, and then only to influence the difficulty of the skill check. But it also allows people the option to get into character and RP if they want to, and are comfortable doing so.
It works for us, particularly as we have a wide variety of experience levels in our group (from those who have played for 15 years to those who have played less than half a dozen times)
Personally, roleplaying is there to make the game fun, not simply to allow people to get away with more than their stats.
When we roleplay, I will require a bluff check regardless of the player saying the dumbest thing of earth or the smoothest line I've ever heard. The player benefits from the awe the other players give him at since a cool line, and he feels good for saying it. And we can all share a few laughs when sometimes his smooth line just won't meet the dice
But I don't penalize players who can't come up with something on the fly. Just like I'll still give a knowledge check to someone who can't remember something. But on the same token, they have to deal with their stats regardless of how they play them, even if its well.
I like the idea of making Charisma more of a luck stat. Its represents not just how you appear to the world, but in some ways your value to the world. A charismatic player is "blessed by fate" if you will. That's how Divine Grace works, and I think dnd could be amended to include some more of these "luck abilities" to really make charisma cool. I don't think it would be that hard, it already includes some luck provisions like luck bonuses and the luck domain.
When we roleplay, I will require a bluff check regardless of the player saying the dumbest thing of earth or the smoothest line I've ever heard. The player benefits from the awe the other players give him at since a cool line, and he feels good for saying it. And we can all share a few laughs when sometimes his smooth line just won't meet the dice
But I don't penalize players who can't come up with something on the fly. Just like I'll still give a knowledge check to someone who can't remember something. But on the same token, they have to deal with their stats regardless of how they play them, even if its well.I like the idea of making Charisma more of a luck stat. Its represents not just how you appear to the world, but in some ways your value to the world. A charismatic player is "blessed by fate" if you will. That's how Divine Grace works, and I think dnd could be amended to include some more of these "luck abilities" to really make charisma cool. I don't think it would be that hard, it already includes some luck provisions like luck bonuses and the luck domain.
Mouseferatu
Hero
Here's a thought. Charisma supposedly represents "strength of personality" among other things, right? That's why sorcererous abilities are based on it.
Why not make Charisma, rather than Wisdom, the base stat for Willpower saves?
With one fell swoop, you've made Charisma important again, without making any changes to the way you play the game. And it fits in with previously existing definitions of how the stat works.
Why not make Charisma, rather than Wisdom, the base stat for Willpower saves?
With one fell swoop, you've made Charisma important again, without making any changes to the way you play the game. And it fits in with previously existing definitions of how the stat works.
Geoff Watson
First Post
mouseferatu said:
That will just make Wisdom the dump stat instead.
Geoff.
LGodamus
First Post
Damieus said "If they roleplay well, then they succeed. If they roleplay badly, I can't justify rolling a die and saying that the guardsman believed they are sick with something like: "Umm.. Randor sneezed. I think he may have hepatitus. Come let us out please."
This is the reason charisma sux in your game...if they have a low charisma stat and use some well spoken line on an NPC then they are not role playing well.......they picked a low cha and are trying to get around it by the player being personable and not the character......that is bull
If they are talking to a guard to let them into the city....just because Don the player said it well Does not mean Ragnar the stammering rude barbarian he plays delivered his speech with the same panache...........
If a player comes up with an exceptionaly good speech I would grant a bonus to the roll not disregard the roll altogether.......that is like saying well since you described your dodge so well we will just say that that giant really didn't just roll a natural 20 and smash you into paste....you dont forgo a roll just because of good description but you might give a circumstance bonus.
This is the reason charisma sux in your game...if they have a low charisma stat and use some well spoken line on an NPC then they are not role playing well.......they picked a low cha and are trying to get around it by the player being personable and not the character......that is bull
If they are talking to a guard to let them into the city....just because Don the player said it well Does not mean Ragnar the stammering rude barbarian he plays delivered his speech with the same panache...........
If a player comes up with an exceptionaly good speech I would grant a bonus to the roll not disregard the roll altogether.......that is like saying well since you described your dodge so well we will just say that that giant really didn't just roll a natural 20 and smash you into paste....you dont forgo a roll just because of good description but you might give a circumstance bonus.
Similar Threads
