BADC: Bothered About Disposable Charisma, Where Can I Find More Info?

[ConcreteBuddha]

What I do to make Charisma more important:

1) I write down all of the PC's Chr scores. Whenever an NPC interacts with the party, the most charismatic characters are spoken to first.

2) Charisma modifers affect prices when buying or selling items. (Each +1/-1 modifier affects the gp value of an item being bought or sold by +1/-1%)

Examples:

The 24 chr paladin buys a long sword+1 for 93% of 2315, or 2192.95, rounded down to 2192 gps.

The 6 chr half-orc barbarian sells a longsword+1 for 98% of half the market value. 2315(.5)(98%) = 1134.35 rounded down to 1134.

In my games, I've found that high charisma characters then sell off and buy all equipment. This means that they have a bargaining chip in all party decisions, and they can also take a share of the savings from the normal (+0) price.

(Which, by default is half the savings subtracted from the normal price. The paladin, if he bought the longsword+1 for the half-orc in the example above, would keep (2315-2192)/2 gps or 61.5 rounded down to 61 gps. So the half-orc would pay 2192 for the sword, while paying the paladin 61 gps. This is in all ways beneficial to the half-orc, because instead of paying 2361 gps [102% of 2315] for the sword, he instead only pays 2253 gps.)

Therefore, the total gp value of equipment of high charisma characters is higher than the lower charisma characters. Thus Charisma is important in my games. Charisma = phat loot.
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Oh yeah, the in-game rationale for why the half-orc has to pay the paladin money is that the paladin must spend time and effort finding suitable buyers and sellers, while the half-orc gets to lounge around.

A real world example: I need a computer. My buddy knows some people who know some people who can get a computer for pretty cheap. I give my buddy some money, he negotiates a deal, buys the computer and delivers it to my front doorstep. I give him some money for his troubles. Afterall, he did just save me lots of money. I could have instead bought a package deal from Dell, but in the end it was cheaper to trust my buddy.

 

[Plane Sailing]

quote:
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Originally posted by mouseferatu
Here's a thought. Charisma supposedly represents "strength of personality" among other things, right? That's why sorcererous abilities are based on it.

Why not make Charisma, rather than Wisdom, the base stat for Willpower saves?

With one fell swoop, you've made Charisma important again, without making any changes to the way you play the game. And it fits in with previously existing definitions of how the stat works.
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That will just make Wisdom the dump stat instead.

Geoff.

Incorrect, as it happens. Wisdom is still important for four spell casting classes, and for base bonuses to the vital Spot and Listen skills... two of the most important skills for ANY kind of D&D game, whether dungeoncrawling or socialclimbing

When I started my campaign a couple of years ago I made Cha the basis for Will saves, and it is working fine. The only problem area is Paladins, who start off with will saves out the wazoo, but even that hasn't been a game-breaker.

The only alteration which I'd make in my next campaign is to give Wisdom the "initiative bonus" benefit, since I could defend that as being more about perceptiveness than reactions. It also makes "everything in Dex" less of a no-brainer decision for rogues, unloading Dex slightly and putting a bit more benefit into wisdom.


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On another tack, in a game I play in we are having great fun on the rp'ing axis because of party charisma. My Ranger has an 8 Cha (my first low cha character in ages), a Monk has an 8 Cha and the dwarf fighter has a 4 Cha. We spent ages in a bar attempting to get to know people and gather information and thoroughly enjoyed playing people who are pretty tongue-tied and not very good socially. We have added fun because we adventure with a Sorcerer who is totally selfish, secretly lawful-evil, but has a really high Charisma... He comes up with stupid plans and acts really obnoxiously but we love attempting to react to his suggestions in the best possible light (although there are many, many times when the other players wish they had my "old" character, a paladin/sorcerer back in the party)

Cheers

 

[demon_jr]

Although this doesn't answer my original question, this is an interesting thread nonetheless.

... you have bonuses to a few skills, but most of the time in my group, my players are decent enough roleplayers where I don't need to make a bluff or diplomacy check. If they roleplay well, then they succeed. If they roleplay badly, I can't justify rolling a die and saying that the guardsman believed they are sick with something like: "Umm.. Randor sneezed. I think he may have hepatitus. Come let us out please."

One thing that really annoys me about charisma is that it's second to actual roleplaying. You have to be able to pull off a decent lie to need to make a bluff check for example. I don't think many DMs are keen on letting players say "I say something charismatic, can I just roll a charisma check?"

Reading the above 2 quotes, this is how my campaign is ran in my opinion. Although I am happy with my campaign, the following quote pretty much sums up what I believe is wrong with running a campaign that way. I entirely agree with LGodamus.

Although there are times when I am sure the DM tries his best to make charisma useful in our campaign, it doesn't really play a big factor because the same result can be gained by "roleplaying" well.

In my opinion, I believe our group's definition of "roleplaying" equates to being able to speak well, act well, think of well spoken lines and thoughtful speeches, etc. If you are unable to do that, then you may be branded a "poor roleplayer".

Take for example my human character with an 18 charisma and a half-orc character with a 12 charisma. Many times our characters can usually achieve the same results, since the player with the half-orc character is a good "roleplayer".

In addition, in terms of interaction with NPCs, depending on the NPCs, they may actually react better to the half-orc because he has a high Strength score and appears strong and tough, while my character may be looked down upon because his strength score is not so high, and I have described him as being lean and not muscular in the sense of mass. In situations such as this, it seems that charisma doesn't play so much a part.

There are also times when a player has rolled a fairly high bluff or diplomacy check (can't remember), but the DM doesn't want the encounter resolved with just a roll, so he asks the player to think of something to say. However, the player isn't that experienced in "roleplaying" (the definition used by our group) and can't think of anything to say, so is slightly penalized for it.

Now on to the quote:

This is the reason charisma sux in your game...if they have a low charisma stat and use some well spoken line on an NPC then they are not role playing well.......they picked a low cha and are trying to get around it by the player being personable and not the character......that is bull

If they are talking to a guard to let them into the city....just because Don the player said it well Does not mean Ragnar the stammering rude barbarian he plays delivered his speech with the same panache...........

If a player comes up with an exceptionaly good speech I would grant a bonus to the roll not disregard the roll altogether.......that is like saying well since you described your dodge so well we will just say that that giant really didn't just roll a natural 20 and smash you into paste....you dont forgo a roll just because of good description but you might give a circumstance bonus.[/B]

Originally posted by Capellan
- if you let roleplaying automatically determine all encounters, then any social skill in the game is invalidated
- if you let roleplaying automatically determine all encounters, then the less confident and outgoing players are penalised .. which tends to make them less confident and outgoing.
- there are times when roleplaying a scene is simply wasting everyone's time, especially if only one player is involved. A lot of things (such as haggling over trade deals, etc) should be brushed over quickly with a die roll, and you should move on.

It's a good article. If you know someone with the books, go take a look at it.[/B]

Can anyone point me to where I can find this article? I wouldn't mind showing it to my DM. I think he would find it interesting.

And if anyone has any information on BADC, then please post.

 

[hong]

Incorrect, as it happens. Wisdom is still important for four spell casting classes, and for base bonuses to the vital Spot and Listen skills... two of the most important skills for ANY kind of D&D game, whether dungeoncrawling or socialclimbing

All you really need is one character with good Spot and Listen.

 

[hong]

There is nothing wrong with heroes with low charisma.

Heroes with low charisma are tricked into clearing the local dungeon while the charismatic is pleaded to by the locals.

Heroes with low charisma are pawns in political affairs. Heroes with high charisma are wooed by the various factions.

Basically there are many repercussions to having a low charisma. They are just not reasons that often affect the dice. They are reasons the DM has to do himself.

I think you said it yourself: the repercussions for low Cha are not those to do with the dice.

D&D is mostly, and for most people, a game about going into dungeons, killing monsters, and taking their treasure. For that sort of campaign, Cha tends to be irrelevant: there's not much call for Diplomacy or Bluff when you're there to bash heads.

Now there's nothing that says D&D _has_ to be played that way. A more character interaction-heavy campaign may make heavier use of Cha, and for such a campaign it probably won't be a dump stat. However, the point is to find ways of making Cha more relevant, without changing the style or tone of the game. Personally, I'm all for killing monsters and taking their treasure. I'd like to see Cha taken more seriously in terms of how it affects the dice, not just in ways that are peripheral to this basic mission.

 

[hammymchamham]

I guess y'all would hate my charisma 4 charecter.

/me runs and hides

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Personally, I don't feel any heroic characters should have a stat below 10 or 12. People should use a rolling method that does not produce a stat below 10 or 12.

No stat should, Charisma or any other, should be below 10 or 12 for a fantasy hero.

I don't mind Charisma being a dump stat for characters who don't utilize it for their abilities or want a high charisma for roleplay purposes. Charisma is useless to your average fighter or barbarian.

Heck, Charisma is a highly necessary stat for a great many classes. The only two classes who have no real need for a good Charisma are the Barbarian and Fighter. Every single other class has class skills or abilities seriously affected by Charisma.

 

[hong]

Re: Re

I don't mind Charisma being a dump stat for characters who don't utilize it for their abilities or want a high charisma for roleplay purposes. Charisma is useless to your average fighter or barbarian.

Learn the difference between "is" and "ought".

Heck, Charisma is a highly necessary stat for a great many classes.

This does not follow...

Every single other class has class skills or abilities seriously affected by Charisma.

... from this.

 

[hong]

I guess y'all would hate my charisma 4 charecter.

... if we notice him in the first place.

 

[officeronin]

For myself, my approach to charisma-based skills is this:

- I set a base DC (or, if it is an opposed check, determine the other NPC's total score)
- if the player just says "I try to bluff him that his target has left town" (or whatever it may be) then they have to beat the base score
- if the player chooses to roleplay the actual scene (and I choose to let them - I'm not spending 20 minutes playing out a scene of them buying provisions) then I'll assign a modifier to the DC (or the NPC's total) based on how good they were. This can be up to 5 (plus or minus - sometimes people make a mess of their roleplaying attempts)

Yes -- we do the same...

Funny how it's always the people that take 4 in charisma in order to get other scores high who always claim that "roleplaying" should be the basis of their PC's social interaction.

Regarding the post about the players feeling "picked on", tough. If one PC had a 4 in strength, you can bet that I'd be looking over that PC's equipment list and looking at encumbrance rules, so why should Charisma be different?

If the party spends all it's time slogging through the endless dungeon of the eternal maze, then charisma is not a factor -- it even makes sense that the PCs, who are people who have chosen to spend all of their lives slogging through the underdark muck without any human contact, may have trouble relating to people.

If you include town life in the campaign, then Charisma is obviously pretty important. If there is a large conflict (like a war), Charisma is very important for the PCs who find that they now need to lead troops. No charisma? Troops flee at first contact, leaving Mr. uber-PC all alone... except for the uber-enemies!

OfficeRonin