BADC: Bothered About Disposable Charisma, Where Can I Find More Info?

[Henry]

...the perform skill and their spellcasting. If you are anyone else.... well... you have bonuses to a few skills, but most of the time in my group, my players are decent enough roleplayers where I don't need to make a bluff or diplomacy check. If they roleplay well, then they succeed. If they roleplay badly, I can't justify rolling a die and saying that the guardsman believed they are sick with something like: "Umm.. Randor sneezed. I think he may have hepatitus. Come let us out please."

... Almost all of charisma's benefits are floating out there in the nebulous ground between roleplaying and rollplaying. So what started out as a rant about how charisma is dumped became a rant about why charisma sucks, and now its a cry for help. Someone please tell me a good way to make charisma more useful in the games I run without picking on the players, please!

Here's where I have to take issue with DMs who let a player's natural charisma and ability to think on their feet override the PC's Charisma. The reason? Delivery. Timing. The je ne sais pas that separates professional comedians and performers from those of us who THINK we could be, but simply aren't.

Your fighter with the 14 INT and 8 CHA might come up with a witty comeback or a quick excuse to throw off the city guard - but what if he can't lie convincingly worth a crap? Those who think all there is to bluffing and dealing with people is simply the words that come out of your mouth - have obviously either never done it before, or are themselves somewhat charismatic, and have never had a problem with it.

Can you honestly talk someone into buying a new car, if they aren't receptive and don't have the money handy? Have you ever tried? (All those professional salesmen out there, I know you probably could. ) But even the pro salesmen have to agree, that professional sales is not just glib lines that work like a magic spell. I'm sure that any commisioned sales person who reads this forum has probably seen dozens of would-be salesmen come and go in their line of work, because they couldn't make the grade. I use sales as an example because to be a salesman is to sell YOURSELF, not the product. You have to be believable, you have to be (or look) trustworthy, and you have to have a certain amount of confidence that not everyone has. What better description for charisma, than trustworthiness, believability, and confidence?

You say you DON'T need those! I pity those who think that. THe local Lord needs someone who can not just rescue his daughter, but someone who will leave her virtue intact? Is he going to trust Scruff the Fighter, Level 10 with a 29 STR, but with a 5 CHA?

Heck, NO! I know some parents in the modern day who wouldn't let their daughter in the same room with a scuzzy-looking man. The king is going to trust you just because you can kill orcs faster than the Fist of God? You must be jesting! On your way with you, sirrah! I'll know where to find you if I need you!

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Then, on the opposite side of things, there is the player who is not charismatic or witty in real life, but who wants to be. Do you penalize those players if they simply CAN'T roleplay as well as the next player? Do you TOSS them from the group if they are too shy to come up with their own witticisms? That's no way to play, either. Role-play should be encouraged, surely, but why have this set of "vapor" stats, those of the player's abilities, be in control of the game over the abilities that are actually IN the game? If a Dungeon Master ignores his players' characters' CHA stats and social skills, in favor of their own, then I fully would expect him to also force the players of the tough fighters to PROVE they could load their own BODIES up with the 75 lbs. of gear, and the 30 lb. armor that they wear, and pick up those 10 lb. Greatswords, and KEEP THEM ON for the course of the evening's session! Why would this be any less plausible than ignoring their PC's Charisma, in favor of what comes out of their mouths?

There is PLENTY of reason for Charisma to be an active stat in the game. But the natural bias of the players in the group cause it to be less favorably seen than the other stats, and so naturally dumped on.

In my games, players with low charismas don'te EVEN TRY to negotiate for goods and services. They leave it to the higher CHA party members. Here's one small example of the way in which CHA is used in my games: Instead of having one set exchange rate for goods and magic that the PC's find and want to sell, they can sell it at 25% of full value, or they can barter. If they roll highly, they can sell it for anywhere from 25% to 75% of full value! If they roll exceptionally poorly, it might go down to as low as 10%!!! (They bargained and in the process said something that insulted the shopkeep or buyer.) The parties have a "face-man" that sells the loot for good prices. I am just waiting for one "faceman" to show up in the group who is really good at it to start asking for a percentage of the sale value!


So my advice is to not let personal bias to get in the way, and THINK of the subtle ways in which charisma is used in your day to day life. If you have to interact with people, you use Charisma. Adventurers CANNOT get by without interacting with people. Who trains you? Who sells you your supplies and mounts? Who gives you your missions? Think about it.

 

[Quasqueton]

I have to delurk and speak up on this subject. The concept that a character's charisma score is worthless, and that a player can just "role play" up his social skills is one of my biggest pet peeves. And this concept is not limited to just charisma either: intelligence and wisdom also get this treatment often.

I recently dropped out of a group partly because of how the DM and players were handling the mental stats. 3 of the 5 PCs in the group had 8 intelligence -- mild retardation. But the players used (and the DM allowed them) their full *player* intelligence in the game. 2 of these players were the planners of the party. I played about half a dozen game sessions with these guys and didn't know till my last day that they had such low intelligence characters. I only learned because we all were talking about our ability scores.

And to think I wasted a 12 in intelligence so that I could play the part of a semi-tactical leader (paladin).

Even just considering game mechanics, charisma is really not that much a dump stat:

- sorcerers and bards use it to cast spells

- bards use it to perform

- clerics and paladins use it to turn undead

- paladins use it for all saves

- rogues use it to feint, to get sneak attacks

- the leadership feat is very powerful with high charisma

As for charisma and social skills: I had a paladin (in the above "8 intelligence" game) with 18 charisma and 12 ranks in diplomacy. With the +2 synergy from sense motive, that gave my paladin a total +18 to his diplomacy checks.

That's plus eighteen!

Looking through the Epic Level Handbook, I see Mordenkainen has +18 diplomacy. And he is considered a master diplomat.

Looking through the DMG, I see I can change hostile adversaries to friendly with a good roll.

In the campaign I quit. . .

The party (plus my paladin's cohort and followers) got themselves into a delicate situation. We were trying to enter a city that was in a siege mentality because of hordes of undead roaming the territory around (long story). We were standing in the hall between the city gates - down portcullises at both ends, arrow slits along the walls, murder holes above, etc. The captain of the guard ordered us all to strip completely naked and walk through a side door one at a time to be allowed in the city.

My paladin tried diplomacy. No change in attitude. The DM never even rolled a die or looked in a rule book. He just "role played" the situation.

We all disarmed, putting our weapons in a wagon. I tried diplomacy again. No change in attitude.

We all removed our armor, and put the suits in the wagon. I tried diplomacy again. No change in attitude.

Some PCs did strip naked, and were taken one by one to be checked out by an old crone. She was obviously using detect evil or detect undead on each person.

My paladin and his soldiers did not strip naked, but were last allowed to enter one by one. We were thoroughly frisked and scanned for evil/undead.

Once in the city, our wagons and equipment (including several magic items) was confiscated and stored in a side building. Our party were in effect under tight house arrest the whole time we were in the city.

I continuously tried negotiating with the guard officers, and even the old crone. But all my +18 diplomacy got me was a harsher attitude.

I had built this character on the concept of being the charismatic leader. But the DM (and even the players) shut it all down.

This problem was not the fault of the game system/mechanics. It was the fault of the DM and players.

In such campaigns, charisma (and intelligence and wisdom) is violently forced into the "dump stat" cliche. It's sad, really.

Quasqueton

 

[Azure Trance]

And as long as people are talking about using CHA to trade goods, how about this link?

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33784

 

[demon_jr]

I agree with much of what you have said Henry.

I couldn't have said it better.

In my opinion, I believe that our group plays the way we do, with regards to Charisma, as a throwback to our 2nd Edition days, when there were no skills such as Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate.

Even now, when such skills are made available, our campaign makes little use of them. If you want to lie, no Bluff roll is made, you just have to lie convincingly to the DM. Same for Diplomacy and especially Intimidate. More than once have players within the party intimidated foes without making a single roll, through sheer virtue of "roleplaying". In fact, there are many times when it would be better to actually "roleplay" since there is much more control than allowing the randomness of the die to determine the outcome.

Here's where I have to take issue with DMs who let a player's natural charisma and ability to think on their feet override the PC's Charisma. The reason? Delivery. Timing. The je ne sais pas that separates professional comedians and performers from those of us who THINK we could be, but simply aren't.

In my opinion, this is how my group defines "roleplaying": delivery, timing, a player's natural charisma and the ability for them to think on their feet.

However, I believe the DM runs our game in this way as to minimize on the amount "rolls" that would be involved as oppossed to actually "roll-playing". The majority of the grouped agreed they would rather "roleplay" encounters rather than have "rolls" determine the outcome, in regards to NPC interactions.

Although I am very happy with my campaign and our game has run smoothly thus far with this playing style, I entirely agree with many posts regarding DMs and players that do not utilize, in my opinion, charisma properly and fail to see the difference between "roleplaying" and a player's "personal charisma".

 

[Al]

Charisma is a peculiar ability score, and is almost certainly the odd one out. Why? Because every other stat increases in value by what the player does with it, but Charisma increases in value by what the DM (and other players) does with it.

With some notable exceptions (sorcerors, turning undead, bards, etc.) Charisma is what the DM makes of it. Essentially, the DM can fall into two 'traps' where Charisma is render null.

The first isn't really a 'trap'- the hack n slash campaign. There is nothing inherently wrong with hack n slash campaign, but they will render Charisma useless. Then again, purely social campaigns will render Strength nearly useless, so it's all a matter of campaign style where the emphasis lies.

Yet the second 'trap' is a common, and a bad one. It is the problem of poor roleplayers dumping a low stat in Charisma and then roleplaying a high one. Think about it. Roleplaying is *not* being able to speak well, act eloquently and make a positive impresion on every NPC in existence. Rather, it is about playing a role. The character with a 6 Int roleplays his character better by saying 'Ug smash' than talking about particle physics. Similarly, the character with a 6 Cha roleplays his character better by being rude, shy or awkward than playing him as charming, outgoing and eloquent. One should not ignore the Bluff roll. It is poor DMing (metagaming?) to penalise a character or benefit a character heavily by having the player's abilities benefit. Just as a character doesn't get a bonus to hit if his player is an Olympic fencer nor a penalty to movement if his player is clinically obese, so the character doesn't get a bonus to Diplomacy if his player is an ambassador nor a penalty if his player can't string together a sentence.

Some more constructive ways DM may consider making Charisma more important:

Difference in general address. Have NPCs make a *clear* disparity between the two. Typically, they enjoy talking to high Cha PCs, and with lower Cha PCs only talk for as long as is polite. With Cha entering the basement zone (5-) they may just make excuses and leave.

Unequal rewards. This is best done with non-monetary rewards. Of course, they may all get 2000 gold pieces, but the charismatic bard may be invited to the duchess' inner circle of advisors, and gain great influence as a result.

Subquests. Have charismatic PCs given more and better quests than uncharismatic ones.

Romance. Very difficult to do well, but can really make a marked difference between charismatic and uncharismatic PCs.

Politics. In a pre-democratic model, charismatic PCs get the friends required to gain advancement; uncharismatic ones don't. In a democratic model, charismatic PCs get elected; uncharismatic ones don't.

Recurring NPCs. Charismatic PCs make friends better, so the more important the friends, the better. If the cleric that the high Cha paladin made friends with earlier petitions the bishop to raise the paladin free of charge, then that translates to a significant material advantage.

Just a few ideas.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Incorrect, as it happens. Wisdom is still important for four spell casting classes, and for base bonuses to the vital Spot and Listen skills... two of the most important skills for ANY kind of D&D game, whether dungeoncrawling or socialclimbing

Precisely. Wisdom has several skills attached to it that are (one could argue) vastly more important to the average campaign than any of the Charisma-based skills.

All you really need is one character with good Spot and Listen.

I don't think you'd survive long in some of the campaigns I've run/seen, Hong.

Groups get split up. Some characters are busy doing something else. Sometimes people just roll lousy. I'd say it's fairly important that more than one member of the party have a decent Listen/Spot, though you're right in as much as not everyone needs to have it.

Anyway, let's see...

Clerics, druids, rangers, and paladins need good Wisdom for spell-purposes.

Many rogues, barbarians, and rangers need good Listen/Spot for scouting purposes.

Monks need good Wisdom for various class abilities.

Seems to me that, even with Charisma made the base stat for Will saves, there's simply no way Wisdom could become "the" dump stat. It's too important--more so than Charisma in the "average" campaign, at any rate.

 

[Falcon]

The KoK Player's Guide has a series of Cha-based feats, which begin with a prerequisite Cha of 13, and a lot of social interaction-based feats. Granted, the Cha-based feats pertain to combat in the feat description, but that can easily enough be tranposed onto the social arena.

 

[hong]

Groups get split up. Some characters are busy doing something else.

Your groups haven't heard of the Cardinal Rule: Never Split the Party?

Sometimes people just roll lousy.

I just use the take 10 rule on all "passive" rolls like Spot and Listen. Makes for more reasonable results, IMO.

 

[Azure Trance]

I just use the take 10 rule on all "passive" rolls like Spot and Listen. Makes for more reasonable results, IMO.

All the time? Even if a player declares it as an action?

 

[hong]

All the time? Even if a player declares it as an action?

If it's declared, it's no longer passive, now is it?