[BADD] A clinic for DMing Dragons- long

[gubaru]

The real problem is the MM's description of small "slutches" of eggs left around the countryside. All I did IMC was to note that dragons are protective parents and young dragons are seldom seen.

The results? No infantacide, and no dragons until the party's high enough level to see their real power.

I agree. I prefer the view of dragons acting more like mammals regarding offspring. Meaning they have fewer young and raise them. The reptile view of lots of offspring left to fend for themselves ends up the same in the long run--a relatively small number of adult dragons--but I just don't like it nearly as much.

 

[mythusmage]

Dragon Encounters

An encounter with a dragon need not (necessarily) involve combat. The parties might engage in a bit of conversation, especially when the PCs are just starting out. For example, a party of first level characters is searching for a band of goblins in the wild wood. During their search they encounter a mature adult green dragon.

Dragon: Greetings, I see you're hunting something. Ah, goblins eh? Nasty beasts, goblins. Certainly can't have them raiding my neighbors. Upsets them terribly it does. May lead to a paladin or similar righteous type blaming me for their depredations. I wouldn't like that.

You're new at this. There are ways of telling. Maybe you'll learn them. If you refrain from attacking green dragons my age that is.

You would hurt me, but I would kill you. I'd rather not be seriously hurt, my enemies would take advantage of it, and you would not like being dead.

After all, we have a common cause. You want the goblins dead. I want the goblins dead. As long as they are here raiding the villages nearby they will draw such as you. You fail, someone more competent may show up. Competent enough perhaps to cause me serious grief. I wouldn't like that. So I shall provide some small assistance. A bit of advice.

Kill the shaman first. He's the brains behind the operation. With him alive they'll fight organized. Dead, they'll fight as individuals. Don't go near the dead oak in the middle of their camp. The shaman put a glyph on it with a scroll they found. Besides, the bright, shiny sword they stashed in the tree is ceremonial, and worthless as a weapon. Finally, be wary of their chief. His sword can cast lightning. He hasn't figured out how yet, all he knows is that his arm tingles when he wields it. for that reason he hasn't used it in battle yet, but in extremis he might, and learn of it's special property by accident.

An event I doubt anyone is eager to see occur.

Why did I tell you about the sword? Because that sword is a nasty piece of business. It tolerates the goblin chief because the goblin shares the sword's outlook on life. You don't. You try using it, you will die. Will I try taking it from you once you have it? The sword hates me. I take it it would do whatever it could to see to my destruction. I'd rather you have it, so you can take it to those who can destroy it. Don't dally on that task.

Now off with you. You have goblins to slay and a reward to collect. I have a meal to catch, and my stomach is getting insistent. Go, and for what it's worth, I wish you good fortune in the coming fight.
*****
Think about it.

 

[reapersaurus]

Just wanted to question you guys on an assumption about dragons I've heard repeatedly:

That they are way arrogant.

It seems to me that dragons are typically pictured as arrogant when they are the ones in control of the situation.
No problem there.

It's when we go to assuming that dragons are arrogant ALL the time is what i question.

They are NOT going to ASSUME that they are more powerful than this random group of adventurers that is storming their lair, probably using magics as well.

Why should an intellignet creature that has seen more than it's share of battles and tricks... spot the party a few nice licks (or in the case of the Greater Spell-Focused mage casting Polymorph other, the entire battle) by unreasonably assuming that the dragon is more powerful?

Seems to me that the dragon would gauge the party's power as best he can.
If he's more powerful than they are, THEN he'd be arrogant and they might get a lucky shot in.

But when the dragon doesn't know how powerful they are, he'd come in with all guns blazin', intent on teaching these trespassers WHY noone F&%CKS with a dragon on his own turf!

There's a big difference between arrogance and unreasonable recklessness.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Whoa. BADD must be a good thing as I'm actually in agreement with reapersaurus

Why do people focus on arrogance as the defining characteristic of dragons?

Aren't there sneaky, conniving, cowardly dragons?

Or proud, brave and ill-tempered ones?

Arrogance can certainly have its place but it doesn't have to be the dominating trait of your dragons. I feel that most dragons above juvenile would lose a great deal of their arrgoance as they realize how big and wide the world is - and that as powerful as they are there are things that can eat them.

Experience can do a lot of things.

If the dragon has had an 'easy' life and never really met anything (or even heard of) as strong or stronger than itself then it could grow pretty arrogant of its powers. But I would think such dragons would be rare. Most should be fighting for survival almost from the time they hatch - that doesn't lend itself well to having every dragon as being overconfident and arrogant.

 

[Wolfspider]

There's a big difference between arrogance and unreasonable recklessness.

Exactly. While I tend to portray dragons as being naturally arrogant (they ARE, after all, at the top of the food chain and obviously creatures of majesty and power), I don't make them stupidly arrogant. They still know perfectly well when they are outmatched, and they don't go out alone facing armies or anything (even though they could probably defeat them single-clawedly). They have nothing to prove.

Similarly, there's nothing more terrifying than a dragon who actually realizes that it's millenium-long life is actually at risk--a moment of terrible clarity. Such a dragon will of course attempt to flee at all cost, but if it is unable to leave the battlefield--woe to all who oppose it.

 

[Altalazar]

Dragons, especially CE ones, have never been given any indication that they care for their young.

On top of that, even a wyrmling, while vulnerable, is quite tough compared to a lot of other creatures, and is more than capable of surviving on its own, if it is careful.

I think Dragon powers also lend credence to the idea of Dragons on their own from birth. They don't get a lot of powers until they are quite old. I see their magical powers as coming from centuries of study and practice in the arcane arts.

I see old dragons as so tough because of all the fights they would have had to have won to have attained that age. If they weren't clever, they would have been killed as a young adult or even before then because they are far from dominating at that age.

And don't forget that Dragons have no love of each other, either. A CE Red is going to see another CE Red as just as much an enemy as a party of adventurers.

I wonder if we need a thread about the best way to kill a dragon who uses these awesome tactics.

One way is to fight fire with fire. The party stalks the dragon, the dragon does its thing, using its awesome tactics, inflicting great harm. Then, just when it seems the party is doomed and the Dragon goes in for the kill, in swoops the Ancient Gold Dragon that the party has been performing great services for in return for this one favor...

 

[James McMurray]

Mythusmage: I prefer the view that dragons are forced to raise themselves. First, it goes along with the lizard aspect. But more importantly, those dragons that do survive are gauranteed to be the ones who are smarter, stronger, and more cunning.

Good idea for a dragon encounter, but that would have gotten my party wither allied with the goblins, or intent on digging that sword out of the tree and taking the chief's sword for themselves. After all, "Never deal with a dragon."

CRGreathouse: "No dragons until high enoug level to see their true power"? I think that WotC put dragons at every CR level and added the bit about clutches of eggs because they felt that dragon-hunting campaigns should be workable. Granted, I'm only supposing, and even if I'm right, WotC's style of play isn't for everyone. However, to say that it isn't right for some is to devalue those people's opinions. After all, when discussing dragons, all we have to go on is opinion anyway.

Reapersaurus: It's the "as best as he can" part that gets me. Why do you get so up in arms when someone has a dragon gaue the party's power and then make incorrect moves based on incorrect assumptions? Should dragons be infallible.

Also, if we could, lets try to keep the debates about my campaign out of thise thread, as I don't think they lend much to the topic here.

Altalazar: The MM even states taht dragons leave their young. It does say that older dragons will raise their young though, so it looks like both possibilities are equally viable, even within the same campaign.

 

[Wolfspider]

As far as the issue of whether dragons raise their young or abandon them...wouldn't finding that out make a great adventure? Imagine the infamous Monster Hunters Society trying to find out the parenting habits of dragons. Could lead to some humorous--and of course dangerous--situations.

Personally, I see the metallic dragons as being nurturing parents because of their natural Goodness. For chromatic dragons, it would depend on their individual natures and goals. Some dragons would just abandon their young. A wily old dragon, however, must use its young as guards and servants, for who better to protect a great dragon than other dragons? Of course, the parent would have to be careful that its progeny didn't get too powerful in their own right....

 

[Hand of Evil]

I also think it is a mix like crocs and aligators.

Aligators make good moms guarding and taking care of the young after hatching.

Crocs stay around protecting the nest but once the eggs hatch only the strong are going to make it.

>>>

A little off topic but anyone ever read the adult comic IRONWOOD, dragons would shapechange and breed with other races, the children are half dragons that as they get older change into full dragons. The thing is that the dragons would care for or protect until birth, then leave. Every other dragon from then on would try and kill the half dragon until it became a full dragon.

 

[Hatchling Dragon]

Re: There can be only 1

Although my quick summary butchers the campaign I think the point comes across. To PC's dragons should be GODS especially 3rd edition dragons....

So, where's the link to your own Story Hour thread? You do have a thread, right? What little you've said so far would make me very keen on reading the whole thing.

Hatchling Dragon