Bag of Rats Cheese ... No More!!!

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Whirlwind Attack now stipulates that when you use it, you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). I'd say that includes TWF as well.

Ultimately, this is aimed at limiting the kinds of abusive situations that have been described by players over the last few years.

On the plus side, WA now allows you to attack each creature within reach (rather than just within 5 ft.), making it useful to big critters and to characters with polearms.

(Yes, this means that Improved WA is obsolete; the revision booklet provides a new version of that feat. It's one of very few epic feats that have any significant changes.)
Andy Collins
Senior Designer
Wizards of the Coast Roleplaying R&D

http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm10.showMessage?topicID=495.topic

Before the inevitable flame-fest, note that the issue of TWF and Whirlwind Attack is Andy's opinion and isn't in the feat description. That's why he says "I'd say"...

 

[Hypersmurf]

In my opinion, the phrase "give up your regular attacks" in 3E Whirlwind Attack already disallowed TWF, and the Sage ruling was ill-thought.

Although it didn't disallow Cleave- or Haste-based atacks, or the like.

-Hyp.

 

[Storm Raven]

Ultimately, this is aimed at limiting the kinds of abusive situations that have been described by players over the last few years.

I'll focus on this portion of Andy's quote. The claims about the "abusive situations"cropping up with Whirlwind Attack always seemed to be hypotheticals. Has anyone ever actually seen the "bag of rats" trick tried? I've heard about it a lot, but I've never actually seen an example where anyone try to use the trick.

The problem with the revision is that the revision team is trying to make sure that every rule is iron-clad foolproof. Which is impossible. Every game has some mechanic where, at the edges, it breaks down. SJGames has made money out of showing humorous examples of this and marketing them as "Murphy's Rules". No matter how much the revsion team works, there will always be something on the margin that can be abused.

And the real danger is that while they are trying to make sure a problem that never crops up (like the bag of rats trick) is nerfed, they will throw off some thing that does make a difference.

 

[LokiDR]

Re: Re: Bag of Rats Cheese ... No More!!!

I'll focus on this portion of Andy's quote. The claims about the "abusive situations"cropping up with Whirlwind Attack always seemed to be hypotheticals. Has anyone ever actually seen the "bag of rats" trick tried? I've heard about it a lot, but I've never actually seen an example where anyone try to use the trick.

I have seen it once, in the smackdown thread. I was amused that someone actually used it.

I would say tha WWA effecting every creature in reach is going to be more powerful more often than cleave/haste/twf extra attacks. Spiked chain WWA becomes nasty, especially given the change that a direct diagonal is not hitable.

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Re: Bag of Rats Cheese ... No More!!!

I have seen it once, in the smackdown thread. I was amused that someone actually used it.

The smackdown threads are usually just people musing over the possibilities that one could engage in though. Is that really an example of someone using the "bag of rats" trick in an actual game?

 

[LokiDR]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bag of Rats Cheese ... No More!!!

The smackdown threads are usually just people musing over the possibilities that one could engage in though. Is that really an example of someone using the "bag of rats" trick in an actual game?

The smackdown threads demonstrate the most abusive but legal use of abilities. It shows that this trick could appear in a game and how nasty it would be.

No one has ever used it in a running game that I am aware of. Mostly, I think they believe that the DM would just house rule it out anyway, as many here have.

 

[splitinfinitude]

The reason I've never seen the bag of rats actually used is that 100% of the DM's I've seen or talked to houseruled cleave and WWA to eliminate the possibility. I'm glad I don't have to houserule anymore. Also, bag of rats is just an example of the problems these rules had. There are lots of actual examples of abuses of cleave, WA, etc. in games.

 

[Storm Raven]

There are lots of actual examples of abuses of cleave, WA, etc. in games.

Such as? I've seen lots of people speculate about possible abuses, but I haven't seen any such abuses crop up in actual games.

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bag of Rats Cheese ... No More!!!

The smackdown threads demonstrate the most abusive but legal use of abilities. It shows that this trick could appear in a game and how nasty it would be.

So, effort has been made to modify a feat that didn't cause any actual game play probelms in order to eliminate the possibility of abuse that never actually occurred?

Good thinking. Useful effort that is.

 

[LokiDR]

The reason I've never seen the bag of rats actually used is that 100% of the DM's I've seen or talked to houseruled cleave and WWA to eliminate the possibility. I'm glad I don't have to houserule anymore. Also, bag of rats is just an example of the problems these rules had. There are lots of actual examples of abuses of cleave, WA, etc. in games.

You can cut your percentage then, because I have never houseruled it. I almost wanted someone to try it, since it would interesting. Spellcasters have piles of different spells, so why would this be a problem?